Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Agree, the Good News is based on real world, real time events.

It is really disturbing how far people will go to make themselves feel special ... I was created to be selected ..God hates all the ones He did not create to select.

If you truly understood how God's precious grace literally transforms His people's hearts, minds and souls you could never ever make that kind of statement because grace turns God's people into worshipful, God-fearing, humble people who are always filled with gratitude and praise for what He has done FOR us and, yes...TO us!

Conversely, it you FWers who think you're super special because you, evidently, possess powers that God doesn't even have -- such as change his own immutable holy nature; yet, you guys think the power of your own "freewill" changed your immutable evil nature!

 

[Doll]

the one you deny ... that both Adam and Eve believed the gospel set forth in Gen 3:15 ... which is why God made sacrifice for the sin of both Adam and Eve ... and why God made coats of skins and clothed them.

The confession for their sin by both Adam and Eve to the faithful God Who forgives confessed sin resulted in God cleansing Adam and Eve from unrighteousness ... just as what occurs in our day and time (1 John 1:9).

The sacrifice of the animal which provided the skin for the coats was sufficient ... unless you believe God's offering was somehow not sufficient???

The coats of skin covered their shame.

Your complete misinterpretation of these early chapters in Genesis results in error upon error on your part.
.

Genesis 3:15 was not the Gospel.

 

[Doll]

No verse tells us that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God either.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

No verse says that the natural man doesn't receive the things of God either.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God.

 

[Kroogz]

that man is blinded, captive to the will
of the devil, a slave to sin, lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light because his deeds
are evil and he is opposed to the spiritual things of God with his God-hating incurably wicked
heart. Incurably wicked meaning man cannot change himself. Only God can.

Again, you have mankind's problem down pat.

What you completely overlook is the Lord Jesus Christs solution.

Mankind, left to himself, is in dire straights.( The problem.)

The Lord Jesus Christ did not leave mankind to himself.(The solution.)

 

[Cameron143]

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God.

This is what happens when people don't quote entire posts. Deceitful people will alter texts or leave out portions in an attempt to alter the meaning of posts of others they disagree with.

 

[Magenta]

Again, you have mankind's problem down pat.

What you completely overlook is the Lord Jesus Christs solution.

Mankind, left to himself, is in dire straights.( The problem.)

The Lord Jesus Christ did not leave mankind to himself.(The solution.)

You must have me confused with your vain self-exalting comrades who do not believe God is needed in the process of coming to believe.

You really are dishonest, also. I do not overlook Jesus as the solution. But then you entered these convos with your dishonesty.

Your lies are an abomination to God. I ain't too keen on them, either.

Romans 7 v 18-24a I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[cv5]

Well, I hit the Rufus wall many months ago, and I quit by placing a bet that I am right and I'll see you in heaven
rather than play ping (garbage in) pong (garbage out), but nice try!

Most every hard-core determinist on this thread has this in common:
Biblical illiteracy manifestly obvious in every post. Vast wholesale biblical misapprehensions. Most make no sense whatsoever, many irrational, many devoid of relevant content at all.

Then there are the denials, shrieking, insults, tirades and condemnations. Another "striking" super-determinist phenomenon all too frequent.

Sad really. I have a great deal of pity for them to be honest.

If they only knew......

 

[Rufus]

I was thinking on this because @Cameron143 used the argument "they fit themselves for destruction" but then I also realized that if they use this line of argumentation they are not being consistent with "god is sovereign/puppet master" argument.

It seems Calvinism lite looses coherence, it has to be all or nothing if one wants to be have a coherent system, I guess @Rufus keeps to the full system which is more coherent but yes it is completely un-biblical.

Others try to straddle a bit between biblical and unbiblical in order to win converts I guess.

Of course, God-haters made themselves fit for their own destruction! God didn't make them unfit for heaven; for all men come into this world in the identical spiritual state: DEAD! God simply leaves them to FREELY (and you're really BIG on FREEDOM, right??? ) do whatever they think is right in their own eyes, withholding his saving grace from them. But as for the rest of mankind...God FREED his chosen people FROM the destructive and addictive power of sin which FREES His people up TO believe on him, love him and serve him.

 

[cv5]

Again, you have mankind's problem down pat.

What you completely overlook is the Lord Jesus Christs solution.

Mankind, left to himself, is in dire straights.( The problem.)

The Lord Jesus Christ did not leave mankind to himself.(The solution.)

Is this Gods rebuke and judgement of false doctrine such as super-determinism and Calvinism?
Is it.....???

[Isa 29:9-16 KJV]
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[Rufus]

Most every hard-core determinist on this thread has this in common:
Biblical illiteracy manifestly obvious in every post. Vast wholesale biblical misapprehensions. Most make no sense whatsoever, many irrational, many devoid of relevant content at all.

Then there are the denials, shrieking, insults, tirades and condemnations. Another "striking" super-determinist phenomenon all too frequent.

Sad really. I have a great deal of pity for them to be honest.

If they only knew......

We know all we need to know about you and your ilk, thank you.

 

[Kroogz]

I was thinking on this because @Cameron143 used the argument "they fit themselves for destruction" but then I also realized that if they use this line of argumentation they are not being consistent with "god is sovereign/puppet master" argument.

It seems Calvinism lite looses coherence, it has to be all or nothing if one wants to be have a coherent system,

Compatibilism. Many on this thread, one in particular, try their best to weave in and out of determinism and some sense of "freewill."

In the end, it's a whole lot of inconsistencies, double talk and mass confusion.

Compatibilism= Determinism. Period. It's just a word salad approach.

 

[Genez]

Still wrong.

By the by, I'm not a Calvinist. Please make a note of it.

You do not follow the creed of "irresistible grace?"

 

[Rufus]

There is that correct hermeneutic again.

No, Sawdust's example is absurd since there is no preceptive/soteriological teaching in the shortest verse in the bible!

But it even gets worse for your wanna-be Einstein: Even so...there is theology and practical application in that very short verse for ALL God's people! And I'm betting that you don't have the first clue about either, do you?

Taking Sawdust's absurd example to its logical conclusion would mean that no Christian today is morally obligated to obey what Jesus told only to his disciples in Jn 15:17! The command only applies to them since they had the super-duper, special, unique, incomparable, apostolic calling upon them.

 

[Rufus]

Compatibilism. Many on this thread, one in particular, try their best to weave in and out of determinism and some sense of "freewill."

In the end, it's a whole lot of inconsistencies, double talk and mass confusion.

Compatibilism= Determinism. Period. It's just a word salad approach.

Only to arrogant mockers who pride themselves as being able to understand the supernatural works of God!

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
Niv

 

[Kroogz]

You must have me confused with your vain self-exalting comrades who do not believe God is needed in the process of coming to believe.

You really are dishonest, also. I do not overlook Jesus as the solution. But then you entered these convos with your dishonesty.

Your lies are an abomination to God. I ain't too keen on them, either.

Romans 7 v 18-24a I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

He will convict/convince the world.(ALL)

The Lord Jesus Christ died for you. Not just for you, but for the whole world.(ALL)


Salvation is equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

John 3:16~Acts 16:31.......The solution for ALL.

The Lord Jesus Christ has a heart for salvation of the lost........As we should.

 

[Rufus]

reneweddaybyday said:


the one you deny ... that both Adam and Eve believed the gospel set forth in Gen 3:15 ... which is why God made sacrifice for the sin of both Adam and Eve ... and why God made coats of skins and clothed them.

The confession for their sin by both Adam and Eve to the faithful God Who forgives confessed sin resulted in God cleansing Adam and Eve from unrighteousness ... just as what occurs in our day and time (1 John 1:9).

The sacrifice of the animal which provided the skin for the coats was sufficient ... unless you believe God's offering was somehow not sufficient???

The coats of skin covered their shame.

Your complete misinterpretation of these early chapters in Genesis results in error upon error on your part.

There is no confession of sin in the Genesis post-Fall account. Moreover, God's decree re Eve and her seed in Gen 3:15 precede any faith or repentance on her part.

And since you think Gen 3:21 is teaching efficacious atonement for all humanity (which at the time was A&E), then why do you think Jn 3:16 isn't for all humanity, as well!? Yet, you FWers concoct your own convoluted word salads for this latter passage by characterizing God as a mere possible or potential savior who only offers opportunities for salvation.

 

[Kroogz]

Only to arrogant mockers who pride themselves as being able to understand the supernatural works of God!

Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
Niv

So the lost do have an excuse. The Lord is directing their steps to the LoF.

 

[Rufus]

So the lost do have an excuse. The Lord is directing their steps to the LoF.

You see...you do think you understand, even though you don't and CANNOT understand that there's only one correct answer to the RHETORICAL question asked in Prov 20:24.

And besides, if God did not direct the steps of all mankind, we'd all be experiencing a living hell right here on earth because God actively restrains evil in this world.

 

[Doll]

You do not follow the creed of "irresistible grace?"

I admit,at first I thought you were making that term up.
So, I Googled.

Why is Calvinism such an obsessive go-to topic here?

To your question.
Does the Bible teach?
https://www.openbible.info/topics/irresistible_grace

If (blending different passages her) Salvation is irrevocable,and Jesus taught no one comes to him unless the Father calls them,and no one can understand that call unless Holy Spirit God the Father enters them first and lifts his hardening from the natural man's mind, because it is given to that one to understand his leading,the Gospel,so to receive irrevocable Salvation,wouldn't it make sense God's call to that is irresistible?

 

[Kroogz]

You see...you do think you understand, even though you don't and CANNOT understand that there's only one correct answer to the RHETORICAL question asked in Prov 20:24.

And besides, if God did not direct the steps of all mankind, we'd all be experiencing a living hell right here on earth because God actively restrains evil in this world.

So the lost do have an excuse. The Lord is directing their steps to the LoF.