The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

[GWH]

This is a true story. I was helping these two brothers to load a truck . Before we load a particular furiture, one brother says to the other brother, " We should put this furniture in the back of the truck." The other brother replies, " no way. It doesn't make sense to put it in the back of the truck. It should go in the front of the truck. They went back and forth and almost got into a fist fight. Come to find out that one brother thought the side closest to the cabin with the driver in it was the front of the truck, and the other brother thought that the side closest to the cabin was the back of the truck. Please don't ask me what does this have to do with anything. As for me, I will not bicker with anyone. I present the truth that is given me, and then I let God choose who He wants to grasp and understand it. I give all glory for my understanding to God through the Holy Spirit. You can choose to believe it, or not. I can only display what I've learned and even take the time to explain it because that is what God wants me to do. Unfortunately, when the truth in scripture is staring them in the face, and they still insist, I can only suggest that they reread the scripture and think about what they've read.
John 6: 28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered, and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. This scripture clearly states that even believing is the work of God.

I prefer the horse-cart analogy (per Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[GWH]

If that's a question it's a false dichotomy. How about you don't use logical fallacies when discussing what others believe?

How about you preferring discussion, which includes asking and answering questions, over quarrelling?
Again, you do not state what you believe but only what you don't believe, which logically leaves room for inferring rightly or wrongly.

 

[NightTwister]

How about you preferring discussion, which includes asking and answering questions, over quarrelling?
Again, you do not state what you believe but only what you don't believe, which logically leaves room for inferring rightly or wrongly.

Here's what I believe. The Elect are made spiritually alive, then faith comes to then by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. They respond with belief and are saved. No twisting. No forcing against their will.

 

[GWH]

Here's what I believe. The Elect are made spiritually alive, then faith comes to then by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. They respond with belief and are saved. No twisting. No forcing against their will.

I appreciate you sharing what you believe, although I would like it more if you cited the Biblical basis.
I only disagree with one word: "then". I believe the better word would be "when" or "as". (as in Acts 19:2)
Is this difference an agreement breaker?

 

[NightTwister]

I appreciate you sharing what you believe, although I would like it more if you cited the Biblical basis.
I only disagree with one word: "then". I believe the better word would be "when" or "as". (as in Acts 19:2)
Is this difference an agreement breaker?

succeeds would be another option. It's not necessarily simultaneous, but can be.

 

[GWH]

succeeds would be another option. It's not necessarily simultaneous, but can be.

I can live with that as long as we are saying that the normative way is for election/salvation to occur at the moment of repentance or conversion of placing saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord. Does this understanding satisfy you also?

 

[NightTwister]

I can live with that as long as we are saying that the normative way is for election/salvation to occur at the moment of repentance or conversion of placing saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord. Does this understanding satisfy you also?

I don't believe that to be the normative way. Nor do I believe election or salvation (two different things) occur at the moment of repentance or conversion. I stated an order intentionally. Election is first, salvation. is last. There is always time between those two events since Election was prior to the foundation of the world.

 

[GWH]

I don't believe that to be the normative way. Nor do I believe election or salvation (two different things) occur at the moment of repentance or conversion. I stated an order intentionally. Election is first, salvation. is last. There is always time between those two events since Election was prior to the foundation of the world.

I see that you are viewing election as synonymous with predestination/foreknowledge and thus saying it occurred before humanity had a chance to sin, but what was predestined was God's plan to elect those who cooperated with His plan per Ephesians:

EPH 1:3, “Blessed/Praised be the Father/God of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all/every spiritual blessings in the heavenly realms in Christ.”

The OT says that God is worthy of being praised (2Sam. 22:4, 1Chron. 16:25, Psa. 48:1), and Psalms says it is fitting for people to praise God (33:1), because He is good (34:8) and forgives those who confess their sin (32:5). Praising is akin to thanksgiving (Psa. 100:4) for God’s blessings of love and justice (Psa. 101:1). The primary blessing is heaven, and spiritual blessings includes the fruit listed in Gal. 5:22-23 and other goodness. “Us” here and in the rest of the passage refers to those who are “in Christ”, which means oneness with Christ via faith as in Eph. 1:1b (cf. Eph. 4:13 & 5:31-32).

EPH 1:4, “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

The reason God created the entire universe was to serve as the stage upon which to enact His plan of salvation (POS): setting apart human sinful souls whose faith satisfies the condition for crediting them with the righteousness of Christ, as in Rom. 3:20 (cf. Phil. 3:7-9).

EPH 1:5, “In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”

God is love (1John 4:8, cf. Rom 5:5-8). and He preplanned those in him (v. 4) to be spiritual children by receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming co-heirs with Christ (cf. Rom. 8:23 & 9:4) per His will for saints to be holy, as in v.4.

EPH 1:6, “to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”

This harps back to v.3. and refers to God’s blessing (cf. Eph. 2:8-10), which is not merited but instead credited, as in v.4. by virtue of being “in the Anointed One or Messiah/Christ. “One” connoted God in Jewish scriptures ever since Moses wrote what is called the Shema (Deut. 6:4).

EPH 1:7, “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the abundance/riches of God’s grace”.

This refers to salvation promised in the Law and Prophets because of Christ’s death on the cross, and to the redemption that is valued as spiritual wealth, echoing v. 5 and connecting with v. 3 as well as with the grace of God in v.6, even though some may reject it (cf. Eph. 3:8 & 16).

EPH 1:8, “that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding”,

This denotes generosity or fullness, and wisdom and prudence will be mentioned again in Eph. 3:10.

EPH 1:9, “and he revealed to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he himself purposed,”

This mystery/POS will be explained later in this epistle, and per God’s pleasure echoes or parallels 1:5, a technique used throughout this passage.

EPH 1:10, “to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.”

This refers again to God’s POS and mystery, explained later in Ephesians, and the time of fulfillment indicates God’s timing and would have mean the “last days” (in ACTS 2:17, 2TM 3:1 and 2PT 3:3) or “end of the age” (MT 24:3, 10, 19, 21, etc.), when all things are brought together under one head/Jesus, seemingly indicating world unification–but other passages indicate that “all” does not include God’s enemies (1Cor. 15:25). Christ’s first advent was for the purpose of creating his spiritual body/church, but his second coming will be on Judgment Day (Heb. 9:26-28)

EPH 1:11, “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

“Chosen” means saved by faith in Christ, including Paul, and predestined repeats the term used in v.5 to refer to “from creation” per v.4. according to God’s POS or will as in v. 9-10. God’s sovereignty is stressed by the repetition and means that God is in control of history so that His plan will be achieved as He determines.

EPH 1:12, “in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.”

This refers to Paul and other apostles or disciples of Jesus who received the Gospel before the Ephesians, whose lives should be a reason for praising deity because of the Christlike behavior/love.

EPH 1:13-14, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

The believers being addressed heard Paul’s Gospel and believed, so they received the Holy Spirit, who is like a seal stamped on a letter or an advance deposit on an account, guaranteeing their future in heaven, again so that God would be praised, echoing v.12. EPH 1:3-14 is one sentence in the Greek.

EPH 1:15-16, “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.

 

[NightTwister]

I see that you are viewing election as synonymous with predestination/foreknowledge and thus saying it occurred before humanity had a chance to sin, but what was predestined was God's plan to elect those who cooperated with His plan per Ephesians:

EPH 1:3, “Blessed/Praised be the Father/God of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all/every spiritual blessings in the heavenly realms in Christ.”

The OT says that God is worthy of being praised (2Sam. 22:4, 1Chron. 16:25, Psa. 48:1), and Psalms says it is fitting for people to praise God (33:1), because He is good (34:8) and forgives those who confess their sin (32:5). Praising is akin to thanksgiving (Psa. 100:4) for God’s blessings of love and justice (Psa. 101:1). The primary blessing is heaven, and spiritual blessings includes the fruit listed in Gal. 5:22-23 and other goodness. “Us” here and in the rest of the passage refers to those who are “in Christ”, which means oneness with Christ via faith as in Eph. 1:1b (cf. Eph. 4:13 & 5:31-32).

EPH 1:4, “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.”

The reason God created the entire universe was to serve as the stage upon which to enact His plan of salvation (POS): setting apart human sinful souls whose faith satisfies the condition for crediting them with the righteousness of Christ, as in Rom. 3:20 (cf. Phil. 3:7-9).

EPH 1:5, “In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”

God is love (1John 4:8, cf. Rom 5:5-8). and He preplanned those in him (v. 4) to be spiritual children by receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming co-heirs with Christ (cf. Rom. 8:23 & 9:4) per His will for saints to be holy, as in v.4.

EPH 1:6, “to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”

This harps back to v.3. and refers to God’s blessing (cf. Eph. 2:8-10), which is not merited but instead credited, as in v.4. by virtue of being “in the Anointed One or Messiah/Christ. “One” connoted God in Jewish scriptures ever since Moses wrote what is called the Shema (Deut. 6:4).

EPH 1:7, “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the abundance/riches of God’s grace”.

This refers to salvation promised in the Law and Prophets because of Christ’s death on the cross, and to the redemption that is valued as spiritual wealth, echoing v. 5 and connecting with v. 3 as well as with the grace of God in v.6, even though some may reject it (cf. Eph. 3:8 & 16).

EPH 1:8, “that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding”,

This denotes generosity or fullness, and wisdom and prudence will be mentioned again in Eph. 3:10.

EPH 1:9, “and he revealed to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure which he himself purposed,”

This mystery/POS will be explained later in this epistle, and per God’s pleasure echoes or parallels 1:5, a technique used throughout this passage.

EPH 1:10, “to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.”

This refers again to God’s POS and mystery, explained later in Ephesians, and the time of fulfillment indicates God’s timing and would have mean the “last days” (in ACTS 2:17, 2TM 3:1 and 2PT 3:3) or “end of the age” (MT 24:3, 10, 19, 21, etc.), when all things are brought together under one head/Jesus, seemingly indicating world unification–but other passages indicate that “all” does not include God’s enemies (1Cor. 15:25). Christ’s first advent was for the purpose of creating his spiritual body/church, but his second coming will be on Judgment Day (Heb. 9:26-28)

EPH 1:11, “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

“Chosen” means saved by faith in Christ, including Paul, and predestined repeats the term used in v.5 to refer to “from creation” per v.4. according to God’s POS or will as in v. 9-10. God’s sovereignty is stressed by the repetition and means that God is in control of history so that His plan will be achieved as He determines.

EPH 1:12, “in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.”

This refers to Paul and other apostles or disciples of Jesus who received the Gospel before the Ephesians, whose lives should be a reason for praising deity because of the Christlike behavior/love.

EPH 1:13-14, “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

The believers being addressed heard Paul’s Gospel and believed, so they received the Holy Spirit, who is like a seal stamped on a letter or an advance deposit on an account, guaranteeing their future in heaven, again so that God would be praised, echoing v.12. EPH 1:3-14 is one sentence in the Greek.

EPH 1:15-16, “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.

So finally you see we disagree. All I ask is that you don't misrepresent what I believe. You don't have to agree with me to do that.

 

[pinebeach]

The astute among us will note that I asked whether that is what was believed;
I did NOT "state/misrepresent" what you believe!
How about you stop misrepresenting grammar/semantics?
Thank you.

No no you're wrong. The astute among us avoid you and your reluctance to engage in a proper manner ie: answering questions, no twisting of what others say, no back peddling when you are wrong and trying to save face, no insults such as whatever gem you are most likely going to drop after this post

No problem though. I would never take you seriously

 

[pinebeach]

Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-- Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. When it says that by grace we are saved, through faith; and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God--Not of works, lest any man should boast, that means that God does all the work including the faith that we develop. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. that means that we become part of Christ Jesus's spiritual body and are in His body. He in turn resides in our beings to direct our motivation from love of self first, to love of God first and all others as we love ourselves. The good works are acts that are motivated by love. Thank you for providing this scripture which prove my points. We are His workmanship because when we are born again, we receive a portal (the Holy Spirit) through which the Son, and the Father in the Son, can enter our beings to fill us with love and direct our thoughts and actions.

While I'm not keen on the use of the word 'portal' (of course I know what it means) I believe scripture states what it states. Nothing we do or can think of doing will in any way, shape or form add to our salvation. This is a common theme, sadly, with too many around here. The 'good works' spoken of are those inspired by the Holy Spirit and not some 'foundation' or what have you that any half decent human can cook up on their own.

We are His workmanship indeed.

 

[GWH]

So finally you see we disagree. All I ask is that you don't misrepresent what I believe. You don't have to agree with me to do that.

No, but I have agreement with Scripture as the basis of my disagreement with you.
And I also have the command of GW to seek agreement with fellow Christians
as my motivation for resolving differences.

 

[NightTwister]

No, but I have agreement with Scripture as the basis of my disagreement with you.
And I also have the command of GW to seek agreement with fellow Christians
as my motivation for resolving differences.

So you still don't get it. Please keep bearing false witness against me. It shows who you really are.

 

[NightTwister]

I also have the command of GW to seek agreement with fellow Christians
as my motivation for resolving differences.

We aren't going to agree, and that's ok. So long as you don't lie about what I believe, we can simply be brothers in disagreement over non-essential issues.

 

[GWH]

We aren't going to agree, and that's ok. So long as you don't lie about what I believe, we can simply be brothers in disagreement over non-essential issues.

Well, I have never lied, so as long as you can agree to disagree without being insulting, okay.

 

[GWH]

An obvious truism that needs to be mentioned is that the happy ending has not happened yet! In between conversion and heaven, God allows our journey to go through various places we would rather not visit: the ghost town of job loss, the quarantined ghetto of disease, the burning village of divided families. History can be viewed as a long “King of the Hill” struggle (KOTH).

But let us take heart from the words of Paul (in Phil. 4:12-13: “I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation… I can do everything through him who gives me strength.” I think Paul’s secret is to treat every negative experience as an opportunity for learning some truth that will help us to become stronger persons and better witnesses for Christ. Financial problems teach us to value spiritual riches and to rely on God (1Tim. 5:6-10), physical ailments teach us to appreciate a healthy immortal life in heaven (2Cor. 12:7-10), and unhappy relationships motivate us to resist the devil, even though we feel as if God has forsaken us (Jam. 4:7-10, Matt. 27:46).

The paradoxical truth is that Believers experience joy despite KOTH or suffering (1Pet. 4:13). While not desiring to suffer or praying for problems, mature Christians have a Christ-like attitude so that tribulations only make them merely joyful rather than overjoyed! Christians are joyous because they realize that suffering is only for a season and for good reason:

1. Pain and sickness due to mortality teach us to center our lives on God and the hope of immortality (Rom. 8:22-25),

2. Pain resulting from sinful behavior leads the wise to conform to the character of Christ (Heb. 12:4-11, Rom. 8:29),

3. Relying on God’s grace and truth in the midst of undeserved troubles glorifies Christ (2Cor. 4:7-11) and shows the value of learning God's Word (2Tim. 3:15-17),

4. Troubles serve to keep mature saints humble (2Cor. 12:7-12), and

5. God’s Holy Spirit comforts those who suffer and thereby demonstrates His love (Matt. 5:4, 2Cor. 1:3-4).

As Paul wrote (in Rom. 5:3-4), “We also rejoice in our sufferings (KOTH), because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope.” Our hope is that we gain heaven (Phil. 1:21), which is worth any grief occasioned by Faith (1Pet. 1:6-9, 2Cor. 4:16-18, Heb. 12:2).

Yes, this life is not heaven yet, although our continual prayer is for God’s will to be done on earth in our lives (Matt. 6:10), but we are encouraged to keep on believing God and resisting evil (Jam. 4:7) until God’s kingdom comes. We should not be discouraged but rather relax and rest in God’s love as we remember what is really important in life, and so we have joy despite adversity because of hope!

“God’s Epistle”

Christ is the image of the invisible God,
By whom all things were created,
And he is the head of his body, the church…
First from the dead resurrected.

For God was pleased in him to dwell fully,
Through him to reconcile sinners
Made peace through his blood, shed on the cross
To make us holy without blemish.

If we continue in faith and stand firm,
Not moved from our hope in the gospel.
The gospel we heard that has been proclaimed
To all, of which Paul is a servant.

Preaching the mystery of God once hidden,
But now is disclosed to the saints:
Christ in you who believe in the Lord,
The hope of glory in heaven.

Continue to live in the way you were taught,
Growing in faith in Christ Jesus,
Christ in you who believe in the Lord,
The hope of glory in heaven.

For you have received circumcision by Christ,
Being buried with him in baptism
And raised with him through faith in God’s power
So let no human judge you.

(Colossians 1:15-2:16, paraphrased excerpts)

 

[GWH]

Due to feedback indicating distaste for the Greek terms "kerygma" and "didache" used in this thread,
I am pondering amending our website to substitute "creed" for kerygma, but I have not yet hit upon
a good replacement for didache. Any suggestions? Thanks.

 

[GWH]

Due to feedback indicating distaste for the Greek terms "kerygma" and "didache" used in this thread,
I am pondering amending our website to substitute "creed" for kerygma, but I have not yet hit upon
a good replacement for didache. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Seeing no suggestions I will assume most folks have no problem with using the two Greek words as I do, so I will continue.

Again, kerygma means the simplest way of stating God's requirement for salvation per Acts 16:31, 2 Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6
plus beliefs that are logically and Scripturally implied, and didache means other doctrines that build on that foundation,
as in Matt. 28:19-20, John 16:13, 2Tim. 3:15-17, 1Cor. 3:10-15 and Col. 2:7.

 

[GWH]

A song about salvation!

Redemption Draweth Nigh!

1. Years of time have come and gone since I first heard it told—
How Jesus would come again some day.
If back then it seemed so real, then I just can’t help but feel
How much closer His coming is today.

(Chorus) Signs of the times are everywhere,
And there’s a brand new feeling in the air;
Keep your eyes upon the eastern sky,
Lift up your head, redemption draweth nigh!

2. Wars and strife on every hand, and violence fills our land.
Still some people doubt He’ll come again.
But the word of God is true; He’ll redeem His chosen few.
Don’t lose hope, soon Christ Jesus will descend.

Signs of the times are everywhere,
And there’s a brand new feeling in the air;
Keep your eyes upon the eastern sky,
Lift up your head, redemption draweth nigh!
Lift up your head, redemption draweth nigh!

 

[GWH]

Another song about salvation (without the chords being removed or in the right spot above the words):

New-Born Again​

(F) F Bb F
1. I’ve found free grace and dyin’ love; I’m new-born again;
F7 Bb F C7 F
been long time a-talkin’ ‘bout my trials here below.
F Bb F C7 F
Free grace, free grace, free grace, sinner;
F Bb F C7 F
Free grace, free grace, I’m new-born a-gain.
F
So glad, so glad, I’m new-born again,
F7 Bb F C7 F
Been long time a-talkin’ ‘bout my trials here below.

2. I know my Lord has set us free, we’re new-born again. . .

3. So let us sing and praise the Lord, we’re . . .

4. Oh won’t you come and join our song, we’re . . .