The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

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GWH said:
I agree with the Baptists and most Protestants that God offers heaven to all,
but many either ignore Him or intentionally reject Him. (John 3:16-18, etc.)
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GWH said:
I agree with the Baptists and most Protestants that God offers heaven to all,
but many either ignore Him or intentionally reject Him. (John 3:16-18, etc.)
Click to expand...

1 Cor 1: 29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of (by) Him (the Father) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of (by) God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. No flesh should glory in the Father's presence means that no human can say, "I made the right choice!", "I did it!", "I'm in heaven because I chose to believe". That is the attitude of just about all of the people that call themselves Christians. Brother, the road to damnation is wide, and the road to salvation is narrow, and few are they that find it. Matt 7: 13-14 I give God the Father all the glory for choosing me to repent of my sins. I give His Son Jesus Christ the glory because he obeyed the Father unto death in order to have my sins removed. I give the Holy Spirit the glory because through the Holy Spirit we are born again by the will of God, not our will. John 1: 13 These two verses alone should be enough to suggest that it is the Father who chooses to be saved. John 6: 37, John 6: 39, John 6: 44, John 6: 65, John 20: 29, John 17: 2.
God is a jealous God. Taking the glory for your salvation instead of giving it to Him will lead you straight to the wide road.
 
GWH said:
I agree with the Baptists and most Protestants that God offers heaven to all,
but many either ignore Him or intentionally reject Him. (John 3:16-18, etc.)
Click to expand...

Jesus died for all mankind so that the Father can choose from all.
 
decipher said:
1 Cor 1: 29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of (by) Him (the Father) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of (by) God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. No flesh should glory in the Father's presence means that no human can say, "I made the right choice!", "I did it!", "I'm in heaven because I chose to believe". That is the attitude of just about all of the people that call themselves Christians. Brother, the road to damnation is wide, and the road to salvation is narrow, and few are they that find it. Matt 7: 13-14 I give God the Father all the glory for choosing me to repent of my sins. I give His Son Jesus Christ the glory because he obeyed the Father unto death in order to have my sins removed. I give the Holy Spirit the glory because through the Holy Spirit we are born again by the will of God, not our will. John 1: 13 These two verses alone should be enough to suggest that it is the Father who chooses to be saved. John 6: 37, John 6: 39, John 6: 44, John 6: 65, John 20: 29, John 17: 2.
God is a jealous God. Taking the glory for your salvation instead of giving it to Him will lead you straight to the wide road.
Click to expand...

All Christians I know glorify God for loving humanity so much that He gave His only Son, so that whoever chooses to believe in him as Messiah and Lord shall not perish but have eternal life in heaven.

You have an unbiblical view that accepting God's gift is meritorious. Confess it and love everyone like God does!
Humans are not robots, programmed by God to be saved or not, which would nullify human agency and thus accountability, making God responsible for sin. So much for glorifying Him!
 
GWH said:
All Christians I know glorify God for loving humanity so much that He gave His only Son, so that whoever chooses to believe in him as Messiah and Lord shall not perish but have eternal life in heaven.

You have an unbiblical view that accepting God's gift is meritorious. Confess it and love everyone like God does!
Humans are not robots, programmed by God to be saved or not, which would nullify human agency and thus accountability, making God responsible for sin. So much for glorifying Him!
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Accepting God's gift is a work of God. He doesn't twist our arm in order for us to accept His gift. He changes us so that we will accept it.
Accepting God's gift is not meritorious for us because it is a work of God.
 
John 6: 28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered, and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. This scripture clearly states that even believing is the work of God.
 
decipher said:
Accepting God's gift is a work of God. He doesn't twist our arm in order for us to accept His gift. He changes us so that we will accept it.
Accepting God's gift is not meritorious for us because it is a work of God.
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Let us not split hairs regarding the difference between twisting and changing.

Actually, as someone who has studied Augustine in some detail, I can explain how he preserved free will along
the line of "so we will accept it", if you are interested. (Calvin did not notice and so did not reiterate that part of A's theology).

Regarding John 6:28-29, it can be better interpreted in light of Ephesians 2:8-10.

Over... :love:
 
GWH said:
Let us not split hairs regarding the difference between twisting and changing.
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It's not splitting hairs, it's a difference.
Actually, as someone who has studied Augustine in some detail, I can explain how he preserved free will along
the line of "so we will accept it", if you are interested. (Calvin did not notice and so did not reiterate that part of A's theology).
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We are neither Augustine, nor Calvin, nor of either. I'm sure you think you can "explain" them, but so far you haven't really done that with other things. All you explain is your understanding of them which is often wrong.
 
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NightTwister said:
It's not splitting hairs, it's a difference.

We are neither Augustine, nor Calvin, nor of either. I'm sure you think you can "explain" them, but so far you haven't really done that with other things. All you explain is your understanding of them which is often wrong.
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So far I do not recall you ever explaining how my understanding is more wrong than yours.
Do you really think it requires more exertion from God to twist than to change?!
Again, I can explain the difference per Augustine, who is credited with originating that doctrine.
 
GWH said:
So far I do not recall you ever explaining how my understanding is more wrong than yours.
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I haven't, and I don't plan to. I just pointed out that yours is wrong.
Do you really think it requires more exertion from God to twist than to change?!
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Your explanation is not the reformed view. You attribute beliefs to us that we do not hold.
Again, I can explain the difference per Augustine, who is credited with originating that doctrine.
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It doesn't matter. We aren't Augustine. And he did not originate it.
 
NightTwister said:
I haven't, and I don't plan to. I just pointed out that yours is wrong.

Your explanation is not the reformed view. You attribute beliefs to us that we do not hold.
It doesn't matter. We aren't Augustine. And he did not originate it.
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Well, you disagreeing is hardly new!
Let's let Decipher disagree for himself.
 
GWH said:
Well, you disagreeing is hardly new!
Let's let Decipher disagree for himself.
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Sure, he's welcome to do that. Doesn't mean I can't do it too. Discussions aren't private here. I find it interesting that you didn't disagree that you are attributing beliefs to us that we don't hold.
 
NightTwister said:
Sure, he's welcome to do that. Doesn't mean I can't do it too. Discussions aren't private here. I find it interesting that you didn't disagree that you are attributing beliefs to us that we don't hold.
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How can I disagree when you do not state what you believe?
 
GWH said:
How can I disagree when you do not state what you believe?
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You stated this: "Do you really think it requires more exertion from God to twist than to change?!" That's not what we believe. I can say that's wrong without stating what I believe. Will you continue to misrepresent, or will you stop doing that?
 
NightTwister said:
You stated this: "Do you really think it requires more exertion from God to twist than to change?!" That's not what we believe. I can say that's wrong without stating what I believe. Will you continue to misrepresent, or will you stop doing that?
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The astute among us will note that I asked whether that is what was believed;
I did NOT "state/misrepresent" what you believe!
How about you stop misrepresenting grammar/semantics?
Thank you.
 
GWH said:
Let us not split hairs regarding the difference between twisting and changing.

Actually, as someone who has studied Augustine in some detail, I can explain how he preserved free will along
the line of "so we will accept it", if you are interested. (Calvin did not notice and so did not reiterate that part of A's theology).

Regarding John 6:28-29, it can be better interpreted in light of Ephesians 2:8-10.

Over... :love:
Click to expand...

Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-- Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. When it says that by grace we are saved, through faith; and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God--Not of works, lest any man should boast, that means that God does all the work including the faith that we develop. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. that means that we become part of Christ Jesus's spiritual body and are in His body. He in turn resides in our beings to direct our motivation from love of self first, to love of God first and all others as we love ourselves. The good works are acts that are motivated by love. Thank you for providing this scripture which prove my points. We are His workmanship because when we are born again, we receive a portal (the Holy Spirit) through which the Son, and the Father in the Son, can enter our beings to fill us with love and direct our thoughts and actions.
 
decipher said:
Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-- Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. When it says that by grace we are saved, through faith; and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God--Not of works, lest any man should boast, that means that God does all the work including the faith that we develop. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. that means that we become part of Christ Jesus's spiritual body and are in His body. He in turn resides in our beings to direct our motivation from love of self first, to love of God first and all others as we love ourselves. The good works are acts that are motivated by love. Thank you for providing this scripture which prove my points. We are His workmanship because when we are born again, we receive a portal (the Holy Spirit) through which the Son, and the Father in the Son, can enter our beings to fill us with love and direct our thoughts and actions.
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No! Not including faith! Where do you get that idea? Please cite Scripture saying that, because Eph. 2:1-10, Rom. 3:21-5:1, Gal. 5:4-6 and Col. 1:3-5 certainly don't. There would be no need for Scripture if God determined everything! Faith is a matter of cooperation per Scriptures such as Phil. 2:12-13 and Col. 1:9-12 & 3:1-17.

Everything else you said I agreed with, that everything we do should be good or motivated by God's love,
but we are not perfect and do not cooperate perfectly, which is our fault--not God's--because we are not robots.
 
decipher said:
Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God-- Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. When it says that by grace we are saved, through faith; and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God--Not of works, lest any man should boast, that means that God does all the work including the faith that we develop. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. that means that we become part of Christ Jesus's spiritual body and are in His body. He in turn resides in our beings to direct our motivation from love of self first, to love of God first and all others as we love ourselves. The good works are acts that are motivated by love. Thank you for providing this scripture which prove my points. We are His workmanship because when we are born again, we receive a portal (the Holy Spirit) through which the Son, and the Father in the Son, can enter our beings to fill us with love and direct our thoughts and actions.
Click to expand...

There seems to be a disconnect between the theory and the real world application of that theory.

I love to see a theoretical statement (a doctrinal statement) such as; by grace we are saved through faith...

Yet, I see a disconnect in the application of that theory (the doctrine), in the real world.

It is as if historical Christianity selected the doctrinal verses and ignored the rest of the scripture.

Revelation 3:15-16
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you
are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

It's these clauses that are inserted through the N.T that add that additional layer.

Your not saved by works but your dead without them.

An idle faith is a dead faith.

Believe in Jesus then walk the walk.
 
This is a true story. I was helping these two brothers to load a truck . Before we load a particular furiture, one brother says to the other brother, " We should put this furniture in the back of the truck." The other brother replies, " no way. It doesn't make sense to put it in the back of the truck. It should go in the front of the truck. They went back and forth and almost got into a fist fight. Come to find out that one brother thought the side closest to the cabin with the driver in it was the front of the truck, and the other brother thought that the side closest to the cabin was the back of the truck. Please don't ask me what does this have to do with anything. As for me, I will not bicker with anyone. I present the truth that is given me, and then I let God choose who He wants to grasp and understand it. I give all glory for my understanding to God through the Holy Spirit. You can choose to believe it, or not. I can only display what I've learned and even take the time to explain it because that is what God wants me to do. Unfortunately, when the truth in scripture is staring them in the face, and they still insist, I can only suggest that they reread the scripture and think about what they've read.
John 6: 28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered, and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. This scripture clearly states that even believing is the work of God.
 
GWH said:
The astute among us will note that I asked whether that is what was believed;
I did NOT "state/misrepresent" what you believe!
How about you stop misrepresenting grammar/semantics?
Thank you.
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If that's a question it's a false dichotomy. How about you don't use logical fallacies when discussing what others believe?
 
Inquisitor said:
There seems to be a disconnect between the theory and the real world application of that theory.

I love to see a theoretical statement (a doctrinal statement) such as; by grace we are saved through faith...
Yet, I see a disconnect in the application of that theory (the doctrine), in the real world.
It is as if historical Christianity selected the doctrinal verses and ignored the rest of the scripture.

Revelation 3:15-16
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you
are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

It's these clauses that are inserted through the N.T that add that additional layer.
Your not saved by works but your dead without them.
An idle faith is a dead faith.
Believe in Jesus then walk the walk.
Click to expand...

Amen. The disconnect results from not always including verse 10 when reading Eph. 2:8-9.
 
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