Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

That means you can pray and fast for forty days.
And? It will not get you saved.

That means, man's will is not God's will in salvation when man thinks he can do something that he thinks God will approve of.
It must be God's will.

Jesus stated it succinctly when he told his disciples that man's works, done in the desire for God to save them, will not do so.
Then, Jesus stated what is God's will is concerning salvation.

Rabbis at that time in Israel, and the Pharisees, had their disciples who would look to them for telling them what works they should do to inherit eternal life.

That is why we see Jesus being approached and asked by some what must they do to inherit eternal life.

Even his own disciples asked Jesus what works would he give them that they must do.

Here is what I am talking about.

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man ​

will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”​

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Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”​

​

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

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John 6:27-29​

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What was Jesus answer?

Want to try my glasses again?

View attachment 280595

​

Why would I want a blind man's glasses?

And no, Rom 9:16 means in the context of the chapter that salvation ultimately depends solely on God's sovereign grace of election -- BEFORE anyone in eternity did anything good or bad.

 

[Rufus]

You are listening to a lie.
Or, possibly making up your own.

It makes me sad to know people who think like you exist.
That people, who know you personally, have to tolerate you.

But, my God will not allow for me to become too discouraged by your example.
For you are just a "discouragement test" to face, and overcome.

​

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, ​

who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28​

Really? I was most definitely rescued (Col 1:13) just like the Lord also rescued the ancient Hebrews from Egypt. But as for you...you stroke your god "freewill" and boast how it ultimately saved you...AND FREED you up to subsequently receive God's saving grace, which God somehow owes everyone anyhow.

 

[Rufus]

It certainly cannot right in the eyes of FWers who despise God's sovereignty and elevate the will of man.

Especially those who claim God does not act unilaterally in matters of salvation.

You know the ones, yammering on about what an unjust tyrannical monster God would be if if He did...

Deuteronomy 30 v 6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

What's really fascinating about the passage above is that this gracious promises explicitly includes the descendants of God's chosen people. So...when we interpret that in light of progressive [NT] revelation, we can understand that the passage is saying all of Abraham's descendants per the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant.

 

[Rufus]

cv5 said:


Yea, you know little buddy, vague, nonsensical, unsubstantiated unbiblical pseudo-philosophical"theories" really don't amount to legit scholarship or sound doctrine.

And frankly, that's all that you have to offer.

But what bugs me is people weaseling out of being held accountable for these errant theories that they espouse. The walk-backs. The non-committal slithering irresolute vacillating when confronted. It's just so very irritating.

You just described to a tee how lovers of the biblical Doctrines of Grace feel about the garbage you post. For example, Adam was really the good guy in the fall. Adam was altruistic and loved his wife so dearly that he sacrificed himself for her. Adam exercised faith and repentance. Adam confessed his sin with no qualifications. Adam showed such great restraint in not eating from the "tree of life", etc., etc., etc.

Utterly amazing how the Holy Spirit missed all these positive markers, qualities and virtues about St. Adam.

 

[cv5]

Why would I want a blind man's glasses?

And no, Rom 9:16 means in the context of the chapter that salvation ultimately depends solely on God's sovereign grace of election -- BEFORE anyone in eternity did anything good or bad.

You know @Rufus buddy, there are in fact plenty of Christians who truly and actually understand that chapter accurately and fully.
And to them you sound like a clueless screeching false prophet.
Fortunately, this also is quite apparent, so no real damage done.

 

[Magenta]

You just described to a tee how lovers of the biblical Doctrines of Grace feel about the garbage you post. For example, Adam was really the good guy in the fall. Adam was altruistic and loved his wife so dearly that he sacrificed himself for her. Adam exercised faith and repentance. Adam confessed his sin with no qualifications. Adam showed such great restraint in not eating from the "tree of life", etc., etc., etc.

Utterly amazing how the Holy Spirit missed all these positive markers, qualities and virtues about St. Adam.

Add to all that and now we have been told that Adam was dead when Eve was made, the same as Abraham was dead when God made a covenant with him ... although in both cases the text explicitly says they were in a deep sleep. Where is the Twilight Zone music when you need it???

 

[cv5]

1) Adam was really the good guy in the fall.
2) Adam was altruistic and loved his wife so dearly that he sacrificed himself for her.
3) Adam exercised faith and repentance.
4) Adam confessed his sin with no qualifications.
5) Adam showed such great restraint in not eating from the "tree of life", etc., etc., etc.

check
check
check
check
and check

Now all that you have to do is believe it and tell all of your frenemies.

 

[GWH]

Can we really refuse to exercise moral free will?

 

[Mem]

I gave 2 choices. And I responded to your question even though you didn't answer mine.

I'm totally flunking out of your school.

 

[BillyBob]

Since when does irrational ignorant rambling predicated upon grievous dogmatic error constitute a cogent well reasoned Biblically grounded argument?

If it opposes your posting, even though it may be ignorant rambling, it's probably a Biblical grounded argument!

 

[lrs68]

Explain your rationale. Why can't God choose to do with his clay pots as he sees fit? Does not God have the right to make from one lump of clay two lumps?

Outside of Pharaoh [free the Hebrew People], Esau [establish Israel through Jacob], and Judas [helped to capture Jesus for our Salvation] when has God done anything like that since 4,500 years, 3,800 years, 2,000 years ago?

Why do you follow a doctrine about something God did 3 times only to benefit His People?

 

[Rufus]

You know @Rufus buddy, there are in fact plenty of Christians who truly and actually understand that chapter accurately and fully.
And to them you sound like a clueless screeching false prophet.
Fortunately, this also is quite apparent, so no real damage done.

Too bad you're not one of them!

To borrow a few of your words, if you don't mind: "....you sound like a clueless screeching false prophet".

 

[Rufus]

Outside of Pharaoh [free the Hebrew People], Esau [establish Israel through Jacob], and Judas [helped to capture Jesus for our Salvation] when has God done anything like that since 4,500 years, 3,800 years, 2,000 years ago?

Why do you follow a doctrine about something God did 3 times only to benefit His People?

God does ALL things to glorify himself and to benefit His people.

I follow the doctrine because all scripture is relevant to believers today! All things in the OT are extremely important to understand because they were written for our benefit by providing examples and instructions for us (Rom 15:4; 1Cor 10:6, 11; Heb 4:11; 2Pet 2:6; Jude 7).

Furthermore, God did these kinds of thing a lot more than three times. Even if we stick with just Judas and the 5 persons mentioned in Rom 9, you forgot Ishmael. Why, oh why, did poor innocent Ishmael not receive the inheritance? So, with Ishmael included, we're now up to four examples.

Plus..back in August I wrote two posts proving from both Special and Natural Revelations that divine "determinism" is alive and well! In fact, the very first place in scripture we see this "determinism" played out is in Gen 3:15 when God determined to save Eve and also determined to not save Adam! But before you rush off a lame, knee-jerk, crazy, visceral retort about poor ol' St. Adam, answer this question first: To which of the two seeds did God consign Adam?

 

[Cameron143]

I'm totally flunking out of your school.

It was a simple enough question. BTW, no one else has ever bothered to answer the question either, but all know the answer is self evident. A person cannot respond unless they are first alive to do so.
I recognize for many that admitting this truth conflicts with other tightly held convictions, and the acknowledgment of such would require considerable scrutiny of such convictions. Truth is worth the labor, for in it, we learn more fully who God truly is.

 

[Genez]

Well, I for one am not the least bit discouraged by ignorance or infantile idiocy.
Lots of pity though.

Discouraged because they have no idea what they will be missing.
They fail to glorify Christ.

 

[Genez]

Why would I want a blind man's glasses?

And no, Rom 9:16 means in the context of the chapter that salvation ultimately depends solely on God's sovereign grace of election -- BEFORE anyone in eternity did anything good or bad.

We need context and some background...

Why in the first place did Paul give Romans 9:11-16?
Why even say it?

Because many were seeking to secure their own salvation by means of their works.
By their religious observance..
Their desire for eternal life motivated their efforts to do prescribed religious works.
Paul shot their approach right down by showing how God determines what He is looking for in a person.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes ​

for God’s people in accordance with the will of God." Romans 8:27​

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted ​

devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire ​

and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject ​

you forever." 1 Chronicles 28:9​

Works are external action that do nothing to change the character and nature of a person.
God looks at the heart of a man. A man with a transformed heart will produce overt works
that will reflect his inner true self... His works will be spontaneously expressed.
Man only looks at the external and overt actions.

So? How did Paul shoot the legalists down who desired to be saved by the efforts of their works?
They had desire and effort!


Romans 9:11-16

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s ​

purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, ​

“The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

​

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,​

​

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,​

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”​

​

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, (works!) ​

but on God’s mercy.​

A little perspective was needed!

 

[lrs68]

God does ALL things to glorify himself and to benefit His people.

I follow the doctrine because all scripture is relevant to believers today! All things in the OT are extremely important to understand because they were written for our benefit by providing examples and instructions for us (Rom 15:4; 1Cor 10:6, 11; Heb 4:11; 2Pet 2:6; Jude 7).

Furthermore, God did these kinds of thing a lot more than three times. Even if we stick with just Judas and the 5 persons mentioned in Rom 9, you forgot Ishmael. Why, oh why, did poor innocent Ishmael not receive the inheritance? So, with Ishmael included, we're now up to four examples.

Plus..back in August I wrote two posts proving from both Special and Natural Revelations that divine "determinism" is alive and well! In fact, the very first place in scripture we see this "determinism" played out is in Gen 3:15 when God determined to save Eve and also determined to not save Adam! But before you rush off a lame, knee-jerk, crazy, visceral retort about poor ol' St. Adam, answer this question first: To which of the two seeds did God consign Adam?

God did those things to establish His people, Land, the Gospel. EVERYTHING IS COMPLETED. God has no need to do anything like that again His Kingdom is established. You are following a Doctrine that will literally NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN and you are falsely using it to say God sends people to Hell. Judgment Day is awaiting people just like what you believe and preach.

 

[Genez]

You know in your heart of hearts that God most certainly did NOT rescue you from the power of sin, the world or the devil. Your "freewill" did because God has supposedly empowered everyone to be self-reliant, self-sufficient and self-satisfied.

You are sounding like a crazy man.
You are accusing different person, not me.

Find out who he is, and throw your stones in that direction.

 

[Cameron143]

We need context and some background...

Why in the first place did Paul give Romans 9:11-16?
Why even say it?

Because many were seeking to secure their own salvation by means of their works.
By their religious observance..
Their desire for eternal life motivated their efforts to do prescribed religious works.
Paul shot their approach right down by showing how God determines what He is looking for in a person.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes ​

for God’s people in accordance with the will of God." Romans 8:27​

“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted ​

devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire ​

and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject ​

you forever." 1 Chronicles 28:9​

Works are external action that do nothing to change the character and nature of a person.
God looks at the heart of a man. A man with a transformed heart will produce overt works
that will reflect his inner true self... His works will be spontaneously expressed.
Man only looks at the external and overt actions.

So? How did Paul shoot the legalists down who desired to be saved by the efforts of their works?
They had desire and effort!


Romans 9:11-16

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s ​

purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, ​

“The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”​

​

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,​

​

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,​

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”​

​

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, (works!) ​

but on God’s mercy.​

A little perspective was needed!

While what you wrote is correct, it is misapplied to Romans 9. Romans 9 isn't concerned with the actions and motivations of men, but the actions and motivations of God.

 

[Kroogz]

It was a simple enough question. BTW, no one else has ever bothered to answer the question either, but all know the answer is self evident.

Yes, it is self evident. Which makes your salvation doctrine self evident.

We are dead, a corpse. We cannot respond to God in any way. Thus, salvation was determined for a few lucky winners before they were born.

What color of socks did Lazarus choose when he was dead?