Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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Genesis 12:1-5
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
God told Abraham to leave his country ... which Abraham did.
God told Abraham He would make a great nation out of Abraham ... no indication that Abraham believed this promise. At this point Abraham was 75 years old, Sarah was 65 years old, and they had no children.
God told Abraham to leave his family ... which Abraham did not do because Abraham brought Lot with him. Lot was Abraham's nephew, the son of his deceased brother, Haran (Gen 11:27-28).
There is no indication in Gen 12 that Abraham would inherit the land ... God only told Abraham to go unto a land that I will shew thee
Magenta said:
Yes, this covenant was wholly made by God. And what is interesting (to me) is that this covenant was made after Scripture tells us Abraham believed God (Gen 15:6).
God did not cut the covenant in Gen 12 when Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees after God told him to leave. Abraham believed God when God told him to leave (Gen 12:1). But Abraham did not believe God when God told Abraham that He would make a great nation out of Abraham (Gen 12:2-3).
It wasn't until Gen 15 when God told Abraham that he would have an heir from his own bowels (Gen 15:4). It was then that Abraham believed (Gen 15:6).
Then God told Abraham that He had brought Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldees to inherit the land (Gen 15:7) ... God did not tell Abraham he would inherit the land in Gen 12 ... Abraham asked how shall I know that I shall inherit it (Gen 15:8)?
After Abraham (finally) believed God's promise of an heir and the promise concerning the land ... then God cut the covenant.
Very interesting ...
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The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his uncircumcised heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart cannot be changed. He hates God, rejects the light, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!
Will you also tell us again how unfair you think God is, and while you are at it, attempt to shame
those who affirm the fact that He keeps His promises? I suspect though that God has never revealed
Himself to you, otherwise you would not complain so bitterly about how He chooses to do it, and the
fact that it is a personal experience, which you deny. And since He has not, you cannot know Him.
And that explains a lot.
Matthew 11 verse 27 ~ All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
It is just more of his blasphemies against God, like HeIsHere, who claims God does things for no good reason.
The free will camp assumes, with no supporting text and contrary to many verses that evidence the opposite, that the man of flesh is free to choose, and will believe, that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and to which he is inherently opposed with his uncircumcised heart of stone. There is simply no getting around the fact that this is the core of their belief, and it flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches about the natural man who is a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light, blinded to truth and under the power and influence of Satan: he serves the law of sin which brings forth fruit unto death, not life. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, his incurably wicked heart cannot be changed. He hates God, rejects the light, and hears the gospel message as foolishness. Praise the Lord if He has set you free!
Abraham believed God and God imputed righteousness to Abraham.
Genesis 15:4-6
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 15:6 proves your claim false ... your claim that natural man "hates God, rejects the light, and hears the gospel message as foolishness". Abraham believed and God imputed righteousness to him. Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees (Gen 12) before God imputed righteousness to him.
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The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Since the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. from 1 Corinthians 1 verses 18-21 The natural man does not choose to believe that which he can neither receive nor comprehend, for it is foolishness to him.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;
Really? And no lobotomy, straitjacket and leash required? Good for Abe.
It's not a proof text. The Bible is a book that progressively reveals truth. The NT speaks much more fully to the subject of salvation than the OT. All that is true of man and salvation were true before they were revealed.
You love to pick people apart and put them back together much shorter than they began with.
While you protect yourself from your own consciousness of the deep denial you have woven yourself into.
Your gang is like a kid's street gang. The big kids on the block....
Though you will deny that as well.
For your doctrine is false.
That, my friend, will be played back to you when the Lord evaluates your wood, hay, and stubble.
You can not stop the emotions, can you?
That is what they keep remaining oblivious to.
Apparently, telling them does no good.
They think it is something personally against them.
..... those of the same feather, flock together.
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you,
and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be heresies among you to show which of
you have God’s approval. (1 Cor 11:18-19)
God stirs the pot.
"Accuse others of what you're guilty to sow confusion."
~Karl Marx, often attributed to serial plagiarist Saul Alinsky
Do your understand what the rhetorical device known as a "play on words" means? The WORK of GOD is faith -- it's ultimately not the work of man! Yet, at the same time, man is morally responsible to trust in God...just like A&E were in the Garden. Ergo, Jesus merges the empowering grace of God with man's spiritual responsibility.
Why don't you try being honest for a change? You know in your heart of hearts that God most certainly did NOT rescue you from the power of sin, the world or the devil. Your "freewill" did because God has supposedly empowered everyone to be self-reliant, self-sufficient and self-satisfied.
Do you understand that when we are taught accurately from the Hebrew and Greek texts?
We find, at times, a play on words?
God works that way at times.
The fact remains: Jesus clearly taught that faith is GOD'S work -- not man's! Kinda harmonizes quite nicely with Eph 2:8-10 among other passages.
You are listening to a lie.
Or, possibly making up your own.
It makes me sad to know people who think like you exist.
That people, who know you personally, have to tolerate you.
But, my God will not allow for me to become too discouraged by your example.
For you are just a "discouragement test" to face, and overcome.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,
who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
Well, I for one am not the least bit discouraged by ignorance or infantile idiocy.
Lots of pity though.