Whether baptism is required or not I'm not addressing. Acknowledgment, which is an outward act, is required. So faith by itself cannot save, as James wrote.
Saved by faith alone?
- Thread starter Lamar
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Whether baptism is required or not I'm not addressing. Acknowledgment, which is an outward act, is required. So faith by itself cannot save, as James wrote.
IMO people who kick against water baptism have a serious problem. It's pleasing to God, so how can anyone who wants to please God think that it's not something worth doing?
Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.
Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" TOGETHER that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.
So, confession is a confirmation that Jesus is Lord and one believes unto righteousness (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and is not a work for salvation after one believes unto righteousness. Its still salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.
So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
That word together is not in the text; it was added by someone. Furthermore, confession is an outward work, ie it's something we have to with our bodies, which faith-aloners reject as being necessary for salvation.
You missed the whole point. So, the word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart but not together according to you? So, one may believe unto righteousness today (but remains lost) until one verbally confesses that Jesus is Lord (which may not be until next week) then one is finally saved next week? That is not what Paul is teaching. Also, what if one is mute and cannot verbally speak? Such a person would remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10. Work-salvationists reject the truth that confessing and believing are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8)
Yeah it's exactly what Paul was teaching. They are justified upon belief and saved upon confession. That's why people in Acts were baptized immediately when they believed; they were making an outward profession of their inward faith. Belief alone doesn't cut it. Your hypothetical exceptions don't invalidate the rule. They're rationalizations to avoid accepting what Paul wrote.
Belief alone cuts it because the OBJECT of our belief (death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) cuts it (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and confession confirms it. (Romans 10:10) I was saved several years ago on a late Saturday night when I believed the gospel and immediately with hands raised in the air I was verbally praising Jesus as Lord and thanking Him for saving me. Praise God!
I was unable to receive water baptism until Sunday morning but I knew without a doubt that I was born again that night prior to receiving water baptism the next morning.
Baptism is an outward profession of inward faith but is still not the means of our salvation. I find it interesting, how certain folks, particularly those who attend the church of Christ. teach a 4-step plan of salvation: 1. Believe 2. Repent 3. Confess 4. Be baptized and a person is not saved until all four steps are completed according to them.
Well, if confession (step 3) is made unto salvation prior to water baptism (step 4) then why would one still need to be water baptized after they confess in order to be saved?
Also, believes unto righteousness means saved. Think about it.
> 
From here, I'm going to leave your ad hominem comments to @PaulThomson to address if he chooses to.
My concern was the first comment’s ad hominem, not methodology. It would be nice to just be able to focus on what Scripture actually says and doesn't say.
Speaking for myself, I have no agenda re: baptism.
I admittedly do not like the "faith-alone" terminology for several reasons. But my eyes and ears are open to Scriptural arguments based upon grammatical and logical interpretation of Scriptures in context and harmonizing in wider context. Proof-texting a list of Scriptures IMO is meaningless.
As I think is clear, I don't think you proved faith-alone from Mark16:16. I think it stands against faith-alone gramatically & logically and at the time it was written.
Here are a few of the issues with John1:12 just to begin:
- Even assuming equating believing with receiving, "faith-alone" bypasses - and effectively erases - the central, active act of receiving Him, the main verb of the passage.
- Receiving authority to become children of God is not equivalent to being saved; the verse grants potential, not a completed salvific state, and the word “saved” is absent, so faith-alone for salvation is not stated here.
- The verse does not mention baptism or other requirements, but their absence does not prove there are none; it addresses only receiving Christ and believing in His name for the granted authority to become children of God, so faith-alone for salvation is not proven.
lol.
Paul said otherwise.
James spoke to people who had mere belief. Not people who had faith.
And yes, You are advocating for baptism, and probably many other works.
I suggest you read this concerning works
Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
.
we are not kicking against water baptism,
we all obeyed God and were water baptized ourself
we are against saying we must be water baptized to be saved. This is a works based gospel right up there with the jew trying to add circumcision to the gospel to be saved (although less painful)
Well, if confession (step 3) is made unto salvation prior to water baptism (step 4) then why would one still need to be water baptized after they confess in order to be saved?
I think you're in denial. Paul clearly says otherwise, yet you've twisted it around to mean he didn't mean what he said..
We have been saved by Grace through faith. Not of works..
You want to boast of your works, feel free.
But I would suggest against it and suggest you boast in Christ like we do
Again, Paul would disagree with you.
Do you have faith in Christ and his work or your work?
God does not need proof your faith is real. He knows.. I would suggest again, stop humanizing God as if God does not know and needs proof.
What difference does it make? It was set as a ubiquitous example. Circumcision has nothing to do with the new covenant so it can't be used in comparison to water baptism, but water baptism obviously is a part of the new covenant. Circumcision was required under the old covenant.
Lets try this
Can you show me what else is required according to Jesus in these words of Christ?
John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (no works)
John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)
John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)
John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)
John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)
John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)
John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)
When Paul said works he meant works of the law of Moses. That is all.