Is it Total Depravity?
- Thread starter Genez
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You should know you can get a completely different answer depending how you ask.
i asked a similar question to yours and it agreed that depravity/ability is based on Paul's teachings.
But you love pushing your CDS and Manichaean gnosticism crap. Why is that?
Faith works through love. Unbelievers can and do do acts of love because they are made in God's image.
I just used the AI because it's easy. I've studied the matter enough to know that it was an accurate response.
If they are devoid of faith in God how does that compute? What are
they loving? Their sin? That sounds closer to what the Bible teaches.
Slaves to sin, lovers of darkness, you know?
I got an accurate response and it did not agree with yours. My response was Biblical. Yours was not.
Paul wrote in Romans 12 that God has given [a measure of Faith] {(to ALL MEN)}.
Every human born was given a measure of Faith which is the ability to choose if one believes in God or not.
Romans 1:21 even tells us about people [who KNEW GOD] but refuse\rejected to acknowledge that God is God. First of all, it requires Faith to even know God (which is the measure of Faith God gives to EVERY MAN). So these people have the Faith to believe in God but they also have the ability to choose to refuse\reject to deny that God is God.
Because of this we continue reading in Romans 1 God eventually gives these people over to a REPROBATE MIND.
Paul proves that Total Depravity to believe in God is a blatant LIE!
But, man has no ability, man cannot do a single thing to give himself the Salvation required to enter into Heaven. So man is Totally Depraved and needs God to be Saved.
Every human born was given a measure of Faith which is the ability to choose if one believes in God or not.
Romans 1:21 even tells us about people [who KNEW GOD] but refuse\rejected to acknowledge that God is God. First of all, it requires Faith to even know God (which is the measure of Faith God gives to EVERY MAN). So these people have the Faith to believe in God but they also have the ability to choose to refuse\reject to deny that God is God.
Because of this we continue reading in Romans 1 God eventually gives these people over to a REPROBATE MIND.
Paul proves that Total Depravity to believe in God is a blatant LIE!
But, man has no ability, man cannot do a single thing to give himself the Salvation required to enter into Heaven. So man is Totally Depraved and needs God to be Saved.
"To each" refers back to "everyone among you." Romans was written to believers. I realize you dispute this. C'est la vie.
The dichotomy of man's fallen nature and Christ's salvation is the cornerstone of God's love and Grace.
I believe you might be asking the wrong question. The question isn't, "how can man function when so incapacitated"? Rather, the question is, "how incredible is a God that grants Grace to those who are so incapacitated?"
The purpose of Grace is to shift one's motives to follow and have a relationship with God from fear to love. He wants us to follow him because he loves us, not merely because we fear him or punishment.
We learn to love only because 1 John 4:19 — “We love because he first loved us.” If we weren't fallen, we would not know what it is to experience love to this infinite depth.
The paradox is that we become better people the closer we get to God, but we wouldn't have a need to become better if we were not first fallen.
Pretty amazing to meditate on.
I believe you might be asking the wrong question. The question isn't, "how can man function when so incapacitated"? Rather, the question is, "how incredible is a God that grants Grace to those who are so incapacitated?"
The purpose of Grace is to shift one's motives to follow and have a relationship with God from fear to love. He wants us to follow him because he loves us, not merely because we fear him or punishment.
We learn to love only because 1 John 4:19 — “We love because he first loved us.” If we weren't fallen, we would not know what it is to experience love to this infinite depth.
The paradox is that we become better people the closer we get to God, but we wouldn't have a need to become better if we were not first fallen.
Pretty amazing to meditate on.
It might have been written to believers but the content discusses natural man which you must deny to continue your beliefs.
But if you want to stay with the only for believers trend then Romans 1 shows believers who knew God, rejected God, and God sends them to Hell.
So one way or another part of your Doctrine fails.
There are many here who do not believe man is incapacitated. They are known as Pelagian heretics.
Yes, they do come against God's grace and sovereignty while elevating man. It is concerning, to be sure...
Your whole post was altogether lovely but I did just want to respond to that part.
Whatever are you talking about? The natural man? Are you blind that you have seen none of my posts about the natural man? It is the central theme of many of my posts because those who promote the free will of the natural man totally overlook what is said of him in the Bible. They rewrite verses to make them fit what they believe over what the Bible actually says. They contradict and outright deny what is said of the natural man, and I am constantly addressing the fact that the FWer ascribes to the natural unregenerated man what is only possible of the spiritual regenerated man. But another thing I have noticed about FWers is how they love to misrepresent, not just the Bible, and not just what others believe, but their own selves as well. I doubt you have a clue, really.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26
Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge. They teach as doctrine the precepts of men.
Free willers still live in detestable idolatry. That includes you, @lrs68
Ephesians 2 v 1-3, 1 Peter 4 v 3b ~ You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.... living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing, and detestable idolatry.
Ephesians 2 v 1-3, 1 Peter 4 v 3b ~ You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.... living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing, and detestable idolatry.
Burn?
Do you find 1:John 1:9 in the Bible?
Chapter and verse numbers does not appear in the Bible.
It was added later on to help us navigate through the Scriptures.
Likewise...
The Bible describes and mentions what we call "depravity" in spades.
Someone determined the term "depravity" would be good to cover the subject to concentrate on.
grace and peace ..............
I read them all but we know Paul in Acts said God made man to seek Him even though man doesn't and Paul even confirmed what God did by claiming in Romans that God gave all man a measure of Faith.Whatever are you talking about? The natural man? Are you blind that you have seen none of my posts about the natural man? It is the central theme of many of my posts because those who promote the free will of the natural man totally overlook what is said of him in the Bible. They rewrite verses to make them fit what they believe over what the Bible actually says. They contradict and outright deny what is said of the natural man, and I am constantly addressing the fact that the FWer ascribes to the natural unregenerated man what is only possible of the spiritual regenerated man. But another thing I have noticed about FWers is how they love to misrepresent, not just the Bible, and not just what others believe, but their own selves as well. I doubt you have a clue, really.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26
Romans 1 confirms Paul's sentiments in Acts and Romans 12 by showing natural man knew God because God manifested Himself to them but they refused to acknowledge that God is God.
So it's quite obvious that YOU have purposely ignored what Paul wrote in the matter.