Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

For instance recently we had one of our FW proponents rewrite what Jesus said in John 8 v 34 so that
it was not everyone who sins but only those who choose to sin, and those who choose to sin are only
atheists according to him... so the only slaves to sin are atheists. 1 Corinthians 2 v 14 is their absolute
fave to rewrite. And they deny what Romans 8 v 7 says. I finally paired them up. (see 16,146 above)

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." John 8 v 34 Not, only those who choose to sin or only atheists. Everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Romans 3 v 23 - all have sinned...

 

[posthuman]

..

At this point it seems way past appropriate to ask why you so consistently misguide us from the Truth of Scripture.

By not posting Heb3:18 you've negated one of the clearest sections of Scripture that logically and lexically parallel faith and obedience.

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:18-19 NKJ)

That's parallelism Rufus. Unbelief and disobedience are being paralleled because they are so intertwined as to be used synonymously in Scripture. Lexically and logically then, faith is parallel to obedience. Since this is established in Hebrews there's no way to say this parallelism doesn't exist throughout the document. Are you prepared to say that faith is not necessary for salvation because Heb5:9 says salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ?

Paul does the same thing with parallelism in Romans:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16 NKJ)

Paul also treats faith and obedience the same way in Rom1:5 and Rom16:26 with the phrase obedience [of] faith which can be legitimately translated in a few ways that also make faith and obedience essentially synonymous. Based upon Rom10, Heb3, and some other Scriptural reasoning, I and others see this parallelism in these two verses in Romans. So, the translation is essentially faith-obedience.

There is more reasoning to substantiate this.

The simple fact is that you're playing games with Scripture for some reason. Not good at all.

the actual thing that passage in Hebrews is referring to is the report of the spies sent into Canaan to search out the land, Numbers 13-14

they did not disobey the command to go, nor to search out, to return nor to report.
they did all those things commanded of them.

Joshua and Caleb believed, and were not afraid.
but the others did not believe that God would Himself go before them, and drive out their enemies before them. so the people again repeated The Lie - - that God had only brought them out of Egypt in order to murder them.

that is the unbelief, and because of that unbelief, they wandered 40 years, instead of walking behind while God went before them doing the work. and that is the work: to believe He is saving, not murdering you, and thus follow Him where He goes.

 

[posthuman]

No. After being convinced of something, some then decide to play a game of truth or consequences. And some don't. One is foolish and one is wise. One is proud and one is humble.

is this like, 'even those who did not sin after the likeness of Adam'?

because some reject truth in deception, but to others the truth is plain, yet they still knowingly prefer a lie.

 

[Magenta]

is this like, 'even those who did not sin after the likeness of Adam'?

because some reject truth in deception, but to others the truth is plain, yet they still knowingly prefer a lie.

They simply deny that when one is convinced they already believe. So typical of him.

 

[Genez]

At this point it seems way past appropriate to ask why you so consistently misguide us from the Truth of Scripture.

By not posting Heb3:18 you've negated one of the clearest sections of Scripture that logically and lexically parallel faith and obedience.

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:18-19 NKJ)

That's parallelism Rufus. Unbelief and disobedience are being paralleled because they are so intertwined as to be used synonymously in Scripture. Lexically and logically then, faith is parallel to obedience. Since this is established in Hebrews there's no way to say this parallelism doesn't exist throughout the document. Are you prepared to say that faith is not necessary for salvation because Heb5:9 says salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ?

Paul does the same thing with parallelism in Romans:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" (Rom. 10:16 NKJ)

Paul also treats faith and obedience the same way in Rom1:5 and Rom16:26 with the phrase obedience [of] faith which can be legitimately translated in a few ways that also make faith and obedience essentially synonymous. Based upon Rom10, Heb3, and some other Scriptural reasoning, I and others see this parallelism in these two verses in Romans. So, the translation is essentially faith-obedience.

There is more reasoning to substantiate this.

The simple fact is that you're playing games with Scripture for some reason. Not good at all.

Having genuine faith is being a doer of God's Word, not just a hearer.

It takes obedience to become a doer of the Word.

​

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. ​

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man ​

observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, ​

and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks ​

into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful ​

hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." ​

​

James 1:22-25​

Its not complicated for those whom discover that the Spirit is guiding them.

.

 

[Jordon]

in those who are born again, the flesh is to be brought under submission to Holy Spirit within ...

Galatians 5:

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

...

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


the word "temperance" means self control. The carnal believer has the ability within to bring his or her flesh under control of the Spirit ... however, if the believer is drawn away from being led by the Spirit through the lusts of the flesh, he or she may fail in bringing his or her flesh under submission.





1 Thessalonians 5:21-23 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
.

So the lust of the flesh sounds like it has some kind of desire of it's own, that's not of the spirit, but i suppose some people would call the mind and soul as one and the mind flesh, but that's a head shrink or is it, all sin leads to death so is the mind soul one and is the soul flesh, Yeo so I was just joking you know, humor puts an end to this discussion.

Yeah the flesh has free will but it's the brain not the mind

 

[Genez]

Understood. Prov26:4-5 - highlighting Prov26:5. Seems to cause meltdown.

The meltdown, I believe, is caused in those who think if they just make up their minds to believe something ... and maintain a sense of belief with great determination. They will have a meltdown when someone is relaxed and secure in what he believes, becomes a walking refutation of what they had convinced themselves is all they need to know and to understand. Their fusebox becomes heated...

 

[posthuman]

They simply deny that when one is convinced they already believe. So typical of him.

yes, i'm with you there
@cv5 is right tho too, some people know the truth but hate it, and vainly reject it, gambling on consequences

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yeo so I was just joking you know, humor puts an end to this discussion.

so end of discussion? ... you do not want me to respond?

nitey nite ...
.

 

[Magenta]

yes, i'm with you there
@cv5 is right tho too, some people know the truth but hate it, and vainly reject it, gambling on consequences

The question is not what to do with the truth. If one is convinced of something, they believe it. There is no need
to decide to believe what one already believes. What one decides to do with the truth is a separate issue. But
logic does not guide these FW folks. Flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. They deny it.

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 v 6-8 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 v 13-14

 

[Magenta]

The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

 

[Jordon]

so end of discussion? ... you do not want me to respond?

nitey nite ...
.

not end of discussion with you, no I will respond to your post, no worries I need to study you posts first with scripture, before answering and im to tired

I meant end of discussion for me, as in me, in my head I just want to put an end to the over thinking for me,

 

[posthuman]

The question is not what to do with the truth. If one is convinced of something, they believe it. There is no need
to decide to believe what one already believes. What one decides to do with the truth is a separate issue. But
logic does not guide these FW folks. Flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. They deny it.

The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 v 6-8 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 v 13-14

yes when the wheel falls off, we don't need to convince anyone that the car is broken. understanding that the car is broken is not a free-will choice at that point.

what we may need to convince them of is to fix it

 

[Magenta]

yes when the wheel falls off, we don't need to convince anyone that the car is broken. understanding that the car is broken is not a free-will choice at that point.

what we may need to convince them of is to fix it

Funny thing is (though not amusing) is the FW claim that man has everything he needs to come to believe
even knowing God must move first... Scripture proclaims man's inability in a number of places, all denied
by these folks... then they will also say, oh, I never said the heart was good enough. They act like God never
gave commands people could not carry out, yet not one person has ever told me how they circumcised their
heart (or ears!). They complain against God's sovereignty a LOT. They find us affirming it to be "foul."

Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

 

[cv5]

means you already believe...

"Already believe" in a mystery kept secret since the world began? And only "now" revealed strictly by means of ambassadors commissioned to preach the gospel message of salvation?

I think that what you propose is typical Calvinist canned flummery. But then again, abandoning notions of Calvinistic chosenite "specialness" would make the ideology instantaneously obsolete.

Rom 16:25 - Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

Col 1:26 - Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

 

[Jordon]

Yeah the fruits of the spirit can tame the flesh, yeah understood @reneweddaybyday Yeap the fruits of the spirit are of the spirit, Yeo understood, so temperance I know that word to. It's still a head shrink tho. That the flesh is still able to fight against the spirit

 

[reneweddaybyday]

not end of discussion with you, no I will respond to your post, no worries I need to study you posts first with scripture, before answering and im to tired

I meant end of discussion for me, as in me, in my head I just want to put an end to the over thinking for me,

ok ... if when you want to discuss further, just let me know.

hope/pray you have a blessed and sweet sleep.
.

 

[Magenta]

"Already believe" in a mystery kept secret since the world began? And only "now" revealed strictly by means of ambassadors commissioned to preach the gospel message of salvation?

I think that what you propose is typical Calvinist canned flummery. But then again, abandoning notions of Calvinistic chosenite "specialness" would make the ideology instantaneously obsolete.

Rom 16:25 - Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

Col 1:26 - Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

When God convinces you of something, you do not need to decide to believe it regardless of all your rabbit trail obfuscations.

Your willingness to deceive is surely epic but you do not fool me.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yeah the fruits of the spirit can tame the flesh, yeah understood @reneweddaybyday Yeap the fruits of the spirit are of the spirit, Yeo understood, so temperance I know that word to. It's still a head shrink tho. That the flesh is still able to fight against the spirit

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

What this verse is saying is ...

if/when the believer is walking in the flesh, he or she is walking contrary to the Spirit and will not do the things the Spirit would have him or her do.

if/when the believer is walking in the Spirit, he or she is walking contrary to the flesh and will not do the things the flesh would have him or her do.
.

 

[cv5]

They simply deny that when one is convinced they already believe. So typical of him.

"already believe".....
When precisely is this "already believe" phenomenon occurring?