Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

This was posted to @reneweddaybyday so please do answer. It's good to see your approach to this.

It is not what was added that I object to, it is trying to combine two different things to alter the meaning.

Actually, Paul is combining v.8 to what he's just said in v.3-7 at minimum.

The verse which was added: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Is a totally different subject, and has nothing to do with verse 5.

Your last statement here not accurate. It's actually quite wrong for several reasons just from the grammar. I'm going to use this translation to try to make this clear:

NET Titus 3:8 This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on such truths, so that those who have placed their faith in God may be intent on engaging in good works. These things are good and beneficial for all people.​

• The trustworthy saying that Paul wants Titus to insist on is what he's just said in Titus3:4-7
  • So, Paul immediately ties v.8 to v.4-7 which includes v.5 which you say v.8 has nothing to do with

NET Titus 3:8 This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on such truths, so that those who have placed their faith (have believed) in God may be intent on engaging in good works. These things are good and beneficial for all people.​

• When Paul says "so that" as translated at the beginning of the highlighted clause, he's telling Titus he wants him to insist on what he's said in v.4-7 for a purpose - essentially that he wants believers to intent in good works (more to this wording but not now).
  • This ties v.8 to v.4-7
• When Paul says, "those who have placed their faith (believed) in God" Paul is summarizing the salvation of God he's just described in v.4-7. So, Paul in essence makes God's salvation and men's believing virtually synonymous.
  • This ties v.8 to v.4-7
  • I said before that this verb pisteuō-believed- placed faith in God is perfect tense. This is important.
    • It's saying they believed in the past and are still believing when Titus is to be dealing with them. The past aspect of this tense is working perfectly with it being used to summarize their past salvation as their belief. They believed / God saved.
    • By using this tense and using it to summarize God's salvation in v.4-7, Paul is again tying v.8 to v.4-7 including v.5 which you say it has nothing to do with.
    • If Paul wanted to isolate v.8 from v.4-7 as you want this to be doing, then a present tense verb would have been more suitable.

In verse 8, Paul is telling Titus – and, when you come across those who already been brought to faith, remind them that it is important to maintain good works!

• I've already put most of this to rest.
• The one thing I'll highlight here is your passive language "been brought to faith". At least you didn't say 'were given faith'.
• The language in v.8 is active voice - they believed - it's why the NET elaborates and says "[they] have placed their faith in God" - they placed their faith in God / God saved them - this is the active response of the unbeliever choosing to repent and believe God who saves them.

You're way off-base here.

 

[cv5]

You really think you are that astute to make such a claim?

Without exegetical teaching, we have no idea what Paul taught in many cases.
Did you know that Paul wrote in the Greek with a great deal of ellipsis?
That he would switch over into classical Greek, away from the Koine?
That translators have missed the point in making Paul's points clear?

Sure... you understand Paul?
Even Peter found Paul's actual writings to be difficult to understand!

​

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as ​

our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God ​

gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in ​

them of these matters. ​

​

His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, ​

which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the ​

other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16​

Very few can exegete Paul accurately with understanding and depth.

God will always provide for those who have stopped playing competitive games with Christianity.

Here is one teacher I found with the capacity to do so.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

It becomes a real eye-opener to find out how deficient and superficial mainstream translations can be.
To find out how much we were not aware of from simplified English translations designed for baby Christians
to begin their walk with.

Grace and peace....

From what I can recall, Greek verb order is practically irrelevant. It is the verb emphasis priority that tells the tale.

The failures of the Calvinist lie with a sophomoric interface with the richnness and nuance of the Greek. On the Hebrew they are infinity worse off.

What's worse are their reactions when faced with correct. A mix of insults, accusations, dogmatic repetition and brutality.

 

[lrs68]

In Israel ?
It was sad what happened to Charlie.
I know his wife is definitely in a bad place at the moment. But this revival I'm not so sure I can promote it to be honest, as people are extremely annoyed at the moment,

It's never going to happen anyway for simple reasons that parts of Charlie's legacy was he would write to all the churches to try and get them to take part in all his policies and beliefs, but he could never get any churches to aid him in his policies.

Charlie was anti abortion, that's never going to change and churches will not take part in world affairs.

I am just saying these particular churches are using the tragedy in hopes to motivate a movement. Now whether it's going to be blessed by God and people get on fire for God or not only time will tell. But I have witnessed some movement because I haven't seen packed out churches in awhile and the altars full of people Repenting and being filled with the Holy Ghost. And according to statistics this is only happening in certain Churches so clearly God is either free to move in some churches because the people are submissive unto God and the other Churches are still trying to follow their incorrect doctrines. But it's definitely a great thing to see so many people crying out to God. Haven't seen anything like this since the 1970s Revivals. But like I said only time will tell.

 

[studier]

I agree, yes indeed, it is all about Jesus,
As well, I think the foundational biblical starting point is God is LOVE.
All attributes of God are within this foundational first principle of God.

This is where the Reformed theology does err profoundly!
This ties into salvation being a gift freely offered to whomsoever will believe.

1) By logical necessity the person must have the will to accept or reject what it being offered. The act of accepting a gift which is offered cannot take place without will and volition.

2) If God regenerates first (gives a new heart, gifts faith, gifts hearing blah blah blah) THEN it is not a gift.

Without having the capacity to accept or receive anything, the concept of a “gift” becomes truly meaningless in every possible sense of the word. A gift is offered freely, never forced which ties into the character of God being LOVE.

If salvation is a gift, it suggests that God does not force belief, but offers eternal life, leaving room for a voluntary response.

The reformed doctrine (TULIP) is so obviously, painfully false, it just makes me wonder about the motives of those who push it.

Appreciate any feedback on the concept of the gift and its connection to personal volition, since I know you were posting about volition a while back.

I don't really know what to add. I absolutely agree that active volitional responsive belief actively receives God's Grace freely given. What's astounding to me is that He's given it in the first place.

 

[lrs68]

the other about Charlie's legacy it was all about getting American Christians to vote based on Christian values.

And when he did his survey he found that only 1 percent of Christians where actually turning up to vote

Yeah, honestly speaking here, it was until the unfortunate tragedy that took place that I actually knew who this guy was. I am thankful for someone his age to address those about his age range but I never knew about him until the unthinkable happened.

 

[HeIsHere]

Further, no one is united to Christ until they say "I do" (an act of volition persuant to informed consent) to the OFFER of the marriage covenant.

Yes they like to split things into sections/levels the temporal and the eternal and then mix them up incorrectly.

The doctrine has many inconsistencies built within it.

Reminds me of the science of mixtures>>>>the consistent true homogeneous mixture versus their heterogeneous mess which may or not be visible to the naked eyes but surely is the case when one examines carefully.

 

[lrs68]

None of what you said has anything to do with this discussion. John never entered the Holy of Holies. You just throw out unrelated stuff thinking it makes your point.
I'm allergic to stuff in that pipe, so I don't use it. It seems you might be hitting it though.

I never said John did anything as you are now claiming. My post says his dad was in the Holy of Holies and you know it does.

 

[HeIsHere]

I don't really know what to add. I absolutely agree that active volitional responsive belief actively receives God's Grace freely given. What's astounding to me is that He's given it in the first place.

I had this discussion a while back with @Cameron143 , I cannot remember his full response about accepting the "gift" but something about how accepting it is NOT volitional.

When I have a moment I will search it out and get back to you.

 

[studier]

Here is one teacher I found with the capacity to do so.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

It becomes a real eye-opener to find out how deficient and superficial mainstream translations can be.
To find out how much we were not aware of from simplified English translations designed for baby Christians
to begin their walk with.

Nicely said!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is not what was added that I object to, it is trying to combine two different things to alter the meaning.
The verse which was added: 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Is a totally different subject, and has nothing to do with verse 5.
In verse 8, Paul is telling Titus – and, when you come across those who already been brought to faith, remind them that it is important to maintain good works!

The whole of chapter 3 was Paul telling Titus to Put them in mind (Titus 3:1).
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sure. Man has a conscience and a mind. They can believe things and be convicted that things that are true. But he remains the arbiter of truth and only understands and acts according to his vile and desperately heart. His faculties are still present, but are corrupted.

God's Word is effective in overcoming the "vile and desperately heart" of mankind. God's Word is life ... God's Word imparts life ... God's Word is power.

in your statement above, you have weakened that which God tells us is power and life and spirit to something easily overcome by makind's "vile and desperately heart".

So he may adopt murder as wrong on a personal level as he has decided, he doesn't believe it because God has deemed it so or believe the moral arguments behind it.

you speak as one who has authority to discern between the thoughts and intents of the heart ... yet we know there is only One who is able to do so ... you really have no idea why a person believes Scripture.
.

 

[cv5]

From what I can recall, Greek verb order is practically irrelevant. It is the verb emphasis priority that tells the tale.

The failures of the Calvinist lie with a sophomoric interface with the richnness and nuance of the Greek. On the Hebrew they are infinity worse off.

What's worse are their reactions when faced with correct. A mix of insults, accusations, dogmatic repetition and brutality.

Not saying all....but many. On this thread anyway.

 

[Magenta]

Oh I know about how verses are isolated to make it fit the system.

Clear verses always stand first.

You FWers have built a whole system based on zero verses.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Actually, Paul is combining v.8 to what he's just said in v.3-7 at minimum.

Your last statement here not accurate. It's actually quite wrong for several reasons just from the grammar. I'm going to use this translation to try to make this clear:

NET Titus 3:8 This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on such truths, so that those who have placed their faith in God may be intent on engaging in good works. These things are good and beneficial for all people.​

• The trustworthy saying that Paul wants Titus to insist on is what he's just said in Titus3:4-7
  • So, Paul immediately ties v.8 to v.4-7 which includes v.5 which you say v.8 has nothing to do with

NET Titus 3:8 This saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on such truths, so that those who have placed their faith (have believed) in God may be intent on engaging in good works. These things are good and beneficial for all people.​

• When Paul says "so that" as translated at the beginning of the highlighted clause, he's telling Titus he wants him to insist on what he's said in v.4-7 for a purpose - essentially that he wants believers to intent in good works (more to this wording but not now).
  • This ties v.8 to v.4-7
• When Paul says, "those who have placed their faith (believed) in God" Paul is summarizing the salvation of God he's just described in v.4-7. So, Paul in essence makes God's salvation and men's believing virtually synonymous.
  • This ties v.8 to v.4-7
  • I said before that this verb pisteuō-believed- placed faith in God is perfect tense. This is important.
    • It's saying they believed in the past and are still believing when Titus is to be dealing with them. The past aspect of this tense is working perfectly with it being used to summarize their past salvation as their belief. They believed / God saved.
    • By using this tense and using it to summarize God's salvation in v.4-7, Paul is again tying v.8 to v.4-7 including v.5 which you say it has nothing to do with.
    • If Paul wanted to isolate v.8 from v.4-7 as you want this to be doing, then a present tense verb would have been more suitable.

• I've already put most of this to rest.
• The one thing I'll highlight here is your passive language "been brought to faith". At least you didn't say 'were given faith'.
• The language in v.8 is active voice - they believed - it's why the NET elaborates and says "[they] have placed their faith in God" - they placed their faith in God / God saved them - this is the active response of the unbeliever choosing to repent and believe God who saves them.

You're way off-base here.

I did not go into a study of vss 1-8 in response to BillyBob. I merely point out that Titus 3:1 starts out with what he claims is only stated in vs 8.
.

 

[HeIsHere]

A mix of insults, accusations, dogmatic repetition and brutality.

Seems like some people did not get the memo to tone it down, the adherents to TULIP have developed a reputation
>> "The Problem of Angry Calvinists"

 

[studier]

I had this discussion a while back with @Cameron143 , I cannot remember his full response about accepting the "gift" but something about how accepting it is NOT volitional.

When I have a moment I will search it out and get back to you.

@cv5 has posted about active voice receipt. I've agreed with him. Several of us have talked about active voice belief. We've discussed God's commands as made to human volition. People are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus called out men who were not willing to come to Him. I just wrote to @sawdust about volitional submission to God. There's not much of anything we can do to convince the indoctrinated determinist. This is all just mental-spiritual exercise. Maybe someone unrevealed gets something from it. I like seeing how others present Truth in their own ways. It's too bad it has to be in such repetitive response to so much error.

 

[HeIsHere]

@cv5 has posted about active voice receipt. I've agreed with him. Several of us have talked about active voice belief. We've discussed God's commands as made to human volition. People are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus called out men who were not willing to come to Him. I just wrote to @sawdust about volitional submission to God. There's not much of anything we can do to convince the indoctrinated determinist. This is all just mental-spiritual exercise. Maybe someone unrevealed gets something from it. I like seeing how others present Truth in their own ways. It's too bad it has to be in such repetitive response to so much error.

100 % Agree!

 

[Magenta]

@cv5 has posted about active voice receipt. I've agreed with him. Several of us have talked about active voice belief. We've discussed God's commands as made to human volition. People are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus called out men who were not willing to come to Him. I just wrote to @sawdust about volitional submission to God. There's not much of anything we can do to convince the indoctrinated determinist. This is all just mental-spiritual exercise. Maybe someone unrevealed gets something from it. I like seeing how others present Truth in their own ways. It's too bad it has to be in such repetitive response to so much error.

Back to this, already gone over how many times? Do you just love to hear yourself speak?

Tell us again the lie that God does not command things people cannot do.

It's all part of the FWer lie, "man is able" even though Scripture says the opposite.

Romans 11 v 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.

 

[Rufus]

No I don't and no, I am not pro-abortion. It is your evil mind that would jump to that conclusion and not ask for further clarification, but considering whatever I say you twist into something wildly unimaginable, I'm not inclined to give you the courtesy of further discussion.

G'day to you sir.

ps I see @Magenta jumped to the same conclusion, as did @Cameron143 earlier on. It is indeed a sad world when people immediately jump to thinking the worst of a person before they even understand.

Obviously, it has never occurred to you that your own writing skills could use improvement. As the old proverb goes: As a man thinks in his heart [or expresses in writing], so he is!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It's too bad it has to be in such repetitive response to so much error.

any attempts to elevate the discussion from pablum is quickly quashed and re-routed back to familiar [to them] talking points ... no getting out of the basement ....