Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

All men are that way, unless God intervenes in their life!

But the Bible tells us Enoch chose to seek God and the his son Methuselah and Lamech and Noah followed. So I trust the Torah.

 

[lrs68]

how about pursuing God to rid themselves of all un-godly behaviour

Yes, that is also something they should do

 

[lrs68]

Agree. In fact the entire epic spectacle of the Exodus had ONE PURPOSE in God's mind: Salvation.

God is first and foremost a Savior, everything He does (everything one way or another) orbits around this ONE primary impetus/objective.

Amen!

 

[NightTwister]

I love how you literally quote the process that the HOLY GHOST wrote in the Bible and people laugh at it.

I wonder if laughing at the Holy Ghost is like Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost?

We aren't laughing at the words the Holy Spirit inspired the authors to write, we're laughing at your interpretation of them because you're wrong.

 

[rogerg]

Romans 10:9
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

How does belief enter into a heart that is deceitful - a heart incapable of curing itself. Something outside of it must first
enter in to change it. Man of himself is unable to do so. And if the heart can't be changed by man, then neither can it believe by man.

[Rom 10:9 NIV] 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

[Jer 17:9 NIV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Romans 10:4
4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

"who believes" does not describe HOW they came to believe, it only tells us that those who believe are no longer under law - the "how" is not addressed there.

4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who is regenerated. X

1) if someone who according to you as a requirement of salvation must produce their own belief in order to become saved, then by trying to satisfy that requirement they place their belief and themselves under law whether or not they realize it, in direct violation of the verse, and therefore, unable to bring salvation to themselves. Only in receiving belief as a gift is the requirement/law circumvented which then makes it not of law.
2) it places them of those of 10:3
3) again, the verse is speaking of those WHO believe, not how they came to believe. It does not address the "how" part - that it did
was your incorrect assumption.

[Rom 10:3-4 NIV]
3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

To make this false doctrine fit scripture what happens is obscure passages are loaded with presuppositions and then used to overrule clear scripture!

This doctrine of regeneration preceding faith is false, completely false.

What you posted above is not "clear scripture" by any means. You just read into the verses superficially, without digging deeply enough
into them to understand their intent.

The following verse clearly states that true faith comes only from/by Christ. In order for it to come from Christ, one must first have Christ. To have Christ, one mut first have been spiritually regenerated.
Without Christ, should someone believe that they can of themselves produce faith, then their faith is in themselves and not in Christ;
that is, to whomever someone attributes the receiving of their faith to, it is them that their faith is in.

[2Pe 1:1 NIV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

 

[cv5]

To whoever cares:

More on the so-translated “natural man” in 1Cor2:14:

“natural” is “psuchikos”

One of the things in exegesis is to understand words and writings from the times they are written. There is still ongoing work on exegeting Paul. Much more is being considered about his use of rhetoric and his interactions with the Greek world and the Hebrew world he was tasked to be integrating. As he states in Romans, his mission is faith-obedience among the nations on behalf of the name of Jesus Christ. Simply put, he’s to bring the Gentiles to faith-obedience to the Jewish Messiah.

When Paul uses the word “psuchikos” in 1Cor2:14 he’s interacting with a word that’s been used among the Greek Philosophers for nearly 600 years as best I can see from our lexical data. Through the centuries it became used to speak of men who we might call the “scholars” among the Greeks – philosophers, morally reflective citizens.

In 1Cor2:14 Paul is comparing and contrasting these psuchikos-Greek scholars first with the teleios-mature Christian 1Cor2:6 and the pneumatikos-spiritual Christian 1Cor2:15. Paul uses both of these words – teleios-mature and pneumatikos-spiritual – basically synonymously to speak of the spiritually mature Christian who he can speak advanced Christian doctrines to. He also contrasts pneumatikos-spiritual (and thus teleios-mature) to the nepios-infant-child Christian to whom he cannot yet speak to re: these advanced Christian doctrines 1Cor3.

Paul is drawing a contrast mainly between the Greek scholar and the mature-spiritual Christian who has the Spirit of God. The best of the Greek scholars does not welcome advanced Christian teaching because they think it’s nonsense. And they can’t know it because they don’t have God’s Spirit. I’ve already dealt with the grammatical structure of the language in these verses. The main issue is they think God’s wisdom is nonsense. They in their self and culturally inflated minds place their own wisdom above anything supposedly of the Jewish God. And this was also part of the problem – the cultural multitude of gods.

So, back to the issue on this and other threads on this forum re: the psuchikos-Greek scholar and the Gospel:

• The issue here is not about the basic message of the Gospel.
• The issue is about the best of the Greek scholars without the Spirit of God vs. men like Paul and other mature-spiritual Christians with the Spirit of God. The best of the Greeks cannot understand the advanced teachings of Christianity. Their main problem is self-inflated human wisdom makes them unreceptive to God’s wisdom which they view as nonsense. This view keeps the best of the Greeks from welcoming the advanced teachings of God’s Spirit.
• Regarding the basics of the Gospel of Christ:
  • Paul has not been speaking of the Gospel since 1Cor2:5
  • Paul from 1Cor2:6-16 is dealing with the best of the Greeks compared to the mature-spiritual Christian with the Spirit. The best of the Greeks cannot know what the spiritually educated Christian knows.
  • Nor can the nepios-baby Christian who is still fleshly-sarkikos know these advanced Christian doctrines 1Cor3. So the issue is not basics of the Gospel, but the advanced Christians doctrines that neither the baby and still carnal Christian, nor the psuchikos-soulish Greek scholar can know.
  • To explain more of how the Bible presents the psuchikos-soulish man and why Paul is not dealing with the basics of the Gospel, we can compare him with Jude and James re; the psuchikos-soulish man:
    • Jude is summoning Christians to exert intense effort for the once-for-all delivered faith – our common salvation. The faith is all Christian doctrine having to do with our salvation.
      • In Jude1:19 he identifies the enemies as the psuchikoi-soulish men (plural of psuchikos-soulish man). Jude is speaking of these men’s condition and ungodliness and not limiting to Greek scholars but including all the soulish, ungodly.
      • A few of their characteristics are:
      • They are ungodly – irreverent towards God
      • They change God’s grace into licentiousness – no moral restraints
      • They refuse-disdain-deny-repudiate the only despotēs – the only absolute legal authority – God and/even our Lord Jesus Christ. So, according to Jude these psuchikoi-soulish men do understand the issue of who God is but they refuse Him, they disdain (loathe), deny, repudiate Him. They know who God is – they know who Jesus Christ is – they know the Gospel of Jesus Christ – they simply loathe Him.
    • James tells us more about their so-called “wisdom”. Remember this is what Paul is dealing with – the human wisdom of the Greek scholars:
      • It’s not from above
      • It’s of the earth
      • It’s psuchikos-soulish (doesn’t pertain to the Spirit)
      • It’s demonic - originates from the lower realm of spirits

FWIW, I’ve looked at this many times and I’ve read others on this forum and elsewhere who see this similarly to the way I see it. This morning, I looked again through the lexical data and the lengthy history in Greek philosophy of the mention of psuchikos. Paul is interacting with it. Jude tells us it was known well before NC times and draws from a lengthy Biblical history.

• 1Cor2:14 is simply not about the ability to understand the foundational Gospel of Jesus Christ.
• In fact, when we include the information from Jude, he specifically tells us these psuchikoi-soulish men do know and understand the foundational Gospel of Jesus the Christ.
• These psuchikoi-soulish men specifically reject and loathe the authority of Jesus Christ which is to reject the foundational Gospel message that Jesus is the Christ (which is Paul’s foundational Gospel) which Jude states as being the faith we need to fight for – our common salvation – Jesus Christ is the only absolute legal authority (despotēs).

There’s just no way that I can see the deterministic interpretation of the “natural” man not being able to understand the foundational message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They know it and think it’s nonsense and they loathe it and Him. They think they’re wiser than the Hebrew God. That’s their issue.

There are other Scriptures that are difficult to interpret in regard to deterministic vs. non-deterministic traditions. 1Cor2:14 IMO is simply not one of them.

Copy and paste:

The term teleios (Greek: τέλειος) carries rich theological and philosophical significance, especially in Christian contexts. Based on surrounding page content and biblical usage, here's a breakdown of its meaning:

Core Meaning

• Teleios stems from the root word telos, meaning “end,” “goal,” or “purpose.”
• It’s often translated as “perfect,” “complete,” or “mature.”
• In biblical Greek, it refers not to flawlessness, but to spiritual maturity or wholeness—a person or thing that has reached its intended purpose2.

Biblical Usage

• James 1:4: “Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.” Here, teleios reflects the process of spiritual growth through endurance.
• 1 John 4:18: “Perfect love drives out fear.” The word “perfect” here is teleios, suggesting love that has matured and fulfilled its divine purpose.
• Matthew 5:48: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” This verse uses teleios to call believers toward full commitment and spiritual integrity.

Spiritual Implication

• Being teleios is a lifelong journey—not instant perfection, but a steady movement toward becoming more Christ-like.
• It involves growth through faith, perseverance, and love, culminating in a life that reflects God’s design

 

[DeanM]

Agree. In fact the entire epic spectacle of the Exodus had ONE PURPOSE in God's mind: Salvation.

God is first and foremost a Savior, everything He does (everything one way or another) orbits around this ONE primary impetus/objective.

Salvation through Christ is what was predestined. Some throughout the OT and others were chosen before birth to do great things. Mary, the apostles etc. Calvinists I suppose think they are in this group? Now lets see the red x's and cherry picked scriptures.

 

[lrs68]

We aren't laughing at the words the Holy Spirit inspired the authors to write, we're laughing at your interpretation of them because you're wrong.

I didn't add my interpretation I just added Scripture that plainly states.

But you think God would enter a vessel before Repentance which there's not a single Verse anywhere that claims that. It says over 50 times Repenting brings Salvation. So your translation calls the Holy Ghost either a liar or that He is stupid and you know better than Him.

 

[lrs68]

Show me a VERSE where the Holy Ghost enters a human [[((before))]] Repentance?

 

[DeanM]

I didn't add my interpretation I just added Scripture that plainly states.

But you think God would enter a vessel before Repentance which there's not a single Verse anywhere that claims that. It says over 50 times Repenting brings Salvation. So your translation calls the Holy Ghost either a liar or that He is stupid and you know better than Him.

Yes. I wonder why John the baptist was calling for people to repent before the savior started his ministry?

 

[cv5]

To whoever cares:

More on the so-translated “natural man” in 1Cor2:14:

“natural” is “psuchikos”

One of the things in exegesis is to understand words and writings from the times they are written. There is still ongoing work on exegeting Paul. Much more is being considered about his use of rhetoric and his interactions with the Greek world and the Hebrew world he was tasked to be integrating. As he states in Romans, his mission is faith-obedience among the nations on behalf of the name of Jesus Christ. Simply put, he’s to bring the Gentiles to faith-obedience to the Jewish Messiah.

When Paul uses the word “psuchikos” in 1Cor2:14 he’s interacting with a word that’s been used among the Greek Philosophers for nearly 600 years as best I can see from our lexical data. Through the centuries it became used to speak of men who we might call the “scholars” among the Greeks – philosophers, morally reflective citizens.

In 1Cor2:14 Paul is comparing and contrasting these psuchikos-Greek scholars first with the teleios-mature Christian 1Cor2:6 and the pneumatikos-spiritual Christian 1Cor2:15. Paul uses both of these words – teleios-mature and pneumatikos-spiritual – basically synonymously to speak of the spiritually mature Christian who he can speak advanced Christian doctrines to. He also contrasts pneumatikos-spiritual (and thus teleios-mature) to the nepios-infant-child Christian to whom he cannot yet speak to re: these advanced Christian doctrines 1Cor3.

Paul is drawing a contrast mainly between the Greek scholar and the mature-spiritual Christian who has the Spirit of God. The best of the Greek scholars does not welcome advanced Christian teaching because they think it’s nonsense. And they can’t know it because they don’t have God’s Spirit. I’ve already dealt with the grammatical structure of the language in these verses. The main issue is they think God’s wisdom is nonsense. They in their self and culturally inflated minds place their own wisdom above anything supposedly of the Jewish God. And this was also part of the problem – the cultural multitude of gods.

So, back to the issue on this and other threads on this forum re: the psuchikos-Greek scholar and the Gospel:

• The issue here is not about the basic message of the Gospel.
• The issue is about the best of the Greek scholars without the Spirit of God vs. men like Paul and other mature-spiritual Christians with the Spirit of God. The best of the Greeks cannot understand the advanced teachings of Christianity. Their main problem is self-inflated human wisdom makes them unreceptive to God’s wisdom which they view as nonsense. This view keeps the best of the Greeks from welcoming the advanced teachings of God’s Spirit.
• Regarding the basics of the Gospel of Christ:
  • Paul has not been speaking of the Gospel since 1Cor2:5
  • Paul from 1Cor2:6-16 is dealing with the best of the Greeks compared to the mature-spiritual Christian with the Spirit. The best of the Greeks cannot know what the spiritually educated Christian knows.
  • Nor can the nepios-baby Christian who is still fleshly-sarkikos know these advanced Christian doctrines 1Cor3. So the issue is not basics of the Gospel, but the advanced Christians doctrines that neither the baby and still carnal Christian, nor the psuchikos-soulish Greek scholar can know.
  • To explain more of how the Bible presents the psuchikos-soulish man and why Paul is not dealing with the basics of the Gospel, we can compare him with Jude and James re; the psuchikos-soulish man:
    • Jude is summoning Christians to exert intense effort for the once-for-all delivered faith – our common salvation. The faith is all Christian doctrine having to do with our salvation.
      • In Jude1:19 he identifies the enemies as the psuchikoi-soulish men (plural of psuchikos-soulish man). Jude is speaking of these men’s condition and ungodliness and not limiting to Greek scholars but including all the soulish, ungodly.
      • A few of their characteristics are:
      • They are ungodly – irreverent towards God
      • They change God’s grace into licentiousness – no moral restraints
      • They refuse-disdain-deny-repudiate the only despotēs – the only absolute legal authority – God and/even our Lord Jesus Christ. So, according to Jude these psuchikoi-soulish men do understand the issue of who God is but they refuse Him, they disdain (loathe), deny, repudiate Him. They know who God is – they know who Jesus Christ is – they know the Gospel of Jesus Christ – they simply loathe Him.
    • James tells us more about their so-called “wisdom”. Remember this is what Paul is dealing with – the human wisdom of the Greek scholars:
      • It’s not from above
      • It’s of the earth
      • It’s psuchikos-soulish (doesn’t pertain to the Spirit)
      • It’s demonic - originates from the lower realm of spirits

FWIW, I’ve looked at this many times and I’ve read others on this forum and elsewhere who see this similarly to the way I see it. This morning, I looked again through the lexical data and the lengthy history in Greek philosophy of the mention of psuchikos. Paul is interacting with it. Jude tells us it was known well before NC times and draws from a lengthy Biblical history.

• 1Cor2:14 is simply not about the ability to understand the foundational Gospel of Jesus Christ.
• In fact, when we include the information from Jude, he specifically tells us these psuchikoi-soulish men do know and understand the foundational Gospel of Jesus the Christ.
• These psuchikoi-soulish men specifically reject and loathe the authority of Jesus Christ which is to reject the foundational Gospel message that Jesus is the Christ (which is Paul’s foundational Gospel) which Jude states as being the faith we need to fight for – our common salvation – Jesus Christ is the only absolute legal authority (despotēs).

There’s just no way that I can see the deterministic interpretation of the “natural” man not being able to understand the foundational message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They know it and think it’s nonsense and they loathe it and Him. They think they’re wiser than the Hebrew God. That’s their issue.

There are other Scriptures that are difficult to interpret in regard to deterministic vs. non-deterministic traditions. 1Cor2:14 IMO is simply not one of them.

Beautiful work in defusing the determinists' "natural man" chaos bomb.

 

[Jordon]

Yes, that is also something they should do

ok would you call that regeneration or could you see why a person could believe it was regeneration

 

[NightTwister]

Show me a VERSE where the Holy Ghost enters a human [[((before))]] Repentance?

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! -- Luke 1:39-42 ESV

 

[rogerg]

Salvation through Christ is what was predestined. Some throughout the OT and others were chosen before birth to do great things. Mary, the apostles etc. Calvinists I suppose think they are in this group? Now lets see the red x's and cherry picked scriptures.

[Eph 1:4-5 NIV]
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

 

[lrs68]

ok would you call that regeneration or could you see why a person could believe it was regeneration

I believe the moment you Repent like the Bible says then you are Regenerated [which is saved because you are filled with the Holy Ghost].

 

[cv5]

Salvation through Christ is what was predestined. Some throughout the OT and others were chosen before birth to do great things. Mary, the apostles etc. Calvinists I suppose think they are in this group? Now lets see the red x's and cherry picked scriptures.

I think that a lot of the "Calvinists" here are (per @studier) "nepios-infant-child Christians".
But others are outright heretics looking for trouble IMO.

 

[DeanM]

[Eph 1:4-5 NIV]
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

adoption being the key word

 

[lrs68]

In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! -- Luke 1:39-42 ESV

They were already believers in God.
They already were promised the Blessing.

This discussion is about natural man who doesn't know God.
Elizabeth lived her life worshipping and living for God.
Not the same.

 

[rogerg]

adoption being the key word

Huh? Adoption is the result

 

[NightTwister]

They were already believers in God.
They already were promised the Blessing

John, still in the womb was already a believer?