Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

You're like your wicked Hebrew ancestors who also could not stomach being under a divine monarchy. Instead, they preferred to be like the other nations around them.

Do you think God is going to set up a democracy in the Eternal New Order to placate your fears of an eternal dictatorship?

I am a Hebrew Jew by DNA and Genetics but even under the Law God was never as you describe in the New Covenant and then try to paint it up with Grace.

 

[lrs68]

Personally I believe what scripture teaches and it teaches that the natural man cannot percieve the things of the spirit we must be drawn to him before we can believe

And yes while God does desire that all come to salvation we also cannot freely choose to believe because we are spiritually dead beforehand. I know that I wes not able to just choose salvation because I knew even before I was saved that I was dead inside and it took me coming to my breaking point to be able to surrender to him and that is the key surrender not choosing to believe because anyone can do this but it does not save you it requires surrender not choosing

13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

God instructs man in the natural state that he is able to fulfill verse 13.

 

[Rufus]

Another view of the Exodus:

The Exodus is not the story of regeneration before response. It's the story of gracious deliverance before decision and choice. God brought Israel out of slavery not to declare them saved, but to invite them into covenantal life. He freed them in order to instruct them, and He instructed them in order to call them to choose life. Some did. Many did not. The initial freedom was real, but it was not final. For actual salvation and true life, God commanded them to choose life.

The way I read the Exodus, it conforms nicely to the soteriology of those who see Scripture instructing us that God provides an initial freedom from slavery - and even in this phase many struggle wanting to go back to the slavery - long enough to instruct people and bring them to the point of choosing life which is to choose so called regeneration which is actual salvation. He even puts up with them for decades of wandering and rebelliousness providing them opportunity after opportunity to choose life. Until He doesn't.

Note how @Rufus is using the word "deliverance" at times and not "salvation". It's because he knows he has a problem with his theory and that the Exodus was not Salvation to Eternal Life which required the Israelites to choose Life that was graciously offered to them even in their continuing rebelliousness.

Thanks for confirming what many of us have been saying for a long time. Salvation is a PROCESS! And God's rescue mission in Egypt was the beginning of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Jews had to be set free FROM their bondage prior to entering the Promised Land -- just like God's NC people today must be set free FROM their bondage in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Rufus]

I am a Hebrew Jew by DNA and Genetics but even under the Law God was never as you describe in the New Covenant and then try to paint it up with Grace.

So what!? You think your precious DNA is going to save you!? You think your DNA makes you something special, do you? The real question is: Are you a child of promise? Or are you a child of the slave woman who represents Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to earthly Jerusalem? How did that DNA thingy work out for Ishmael and Esau?

 

[Magenta]

From Galatians 4 v 22-24 plus 28-29 and 5 v 1 Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise. These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery. We, like Isaac, are children of promise. The son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

 

[Genez]

God's elect (Abraham's spiritual descendants), for whom Christ died, will never suffer the penalty of the second death.

Second death takes place after all unbelievers are resurrected in their old bodies.
They stand resurrected before the Lord for judgment in their bodies of sin.
They will die in their sins!

Then, when thrown into the Lake of Fire?
They will have died a second time.

The second death!

 

[studier]

Salvation is certainly in the OT, but no one has ever been saved through keeping the old covenant. Outward obedience has never been what God considered obedience. If the inward reality is not present, one is only drawing near to God with their lips. Read God's address to Israel in Isaiah 1. God couldn't stand their outward worship of Him. Those without spiritual life have never actually obeyed. God isn't only worshipped in spirit and truth, but also obeyed in spirit and truth.

No one is arguing that belief isn't a volitional choice; only that choice isn't without limitations. Much like a person going to buy a vehicle. According to credit, job history, and a host of other factors, there is a limit to what one qualifies to be able to purchase. But if a benefactor comes along who pays in cash, you can obtain what wasn't previously available to you.

No one here is arguing for mere outward obedience, so let’s set aside the straw men and stay focused on the obedience tied to volitional belief I wrote about. And let’s be clear, “salvation” always has a context. Israel was saved from enemies, famine, and exile, but the contextual salvation we're discussing is eternal life, which Scripture defines as knowing and obeying God.

Isaiah 1 doesn’t teach that obedience is impossible without spiritual life as you state. It teaches that God rejects hypocrisy. The call is not to wait for regeneration, but to repent and obey: “Wash yourselves… cease to do evil… learn to do good” Isaiah1:16–17. It speaks of men reasoning together with the Lord and being willing and obedient vs. refusing and rebelling Isaiah1:18-20. That’s clearly volitional obedience and it's being called for by the Lord.

If you're including me in arguing for volitional obedience outside of limitations, one, I, and most I read here do not agree that "free will" is philosophical freedom without limitations, and two, I don't agree with the erroneous limitations you insert into Scripture.

Deficiency in volitional belief is a determinist construct from erroneous interpretations of Scripture. Scripture presents pre-regenerate [true] volitional belief as the sole requirement for receiving grace.

 

[Rufus]

Salvation is an OC concept. The choice of life in the Old Covenant was salvation through knowing and obeying God. 1John2:3 tells us obedience to God is knowing God. John 17 says knowing God is eternal life. The New Covenant in Christ fulfills what the Old Covenant initiated.

Men become spiritual seed not by lineage or decree, but by volitionally believing God.

Which is literally impossible for the proud to do, and this is why the precious gracious gift of the Fear of the Lord is necessary before anyone can believe.

And just how does the New Covenant fulfill what the Old initiated? What terms of this covenant do the NC people of God have to fulfill in order to enter into a saving, covenantal relationship with God? And to whom was this covenant made?

 

[studier]

I didn't. Others made that leap.

So, you disagree with it.

 

[Rufus]

The grace of God is a gift, given freely to the people of God. Therefore, how can you condition anything that’s free on anything you must do? It's simple, you cannot!
I say it is simple, but only if you ask the question from the standpoint of logic. But to man being dead in sin, it is one of the most difficult truths to understand.
Even to the seasoned Christian, we are constantly pulled back to the lie that we must do something to earn our salvation. However, this is nothing but Satan's lie. Did God really say that you are saved by grace apart from works?
It is so easy for prideful man to think that He has done a work to Gain God's favor. He looks at scripture and tells himself [I must believe]. Therefore, grace has only presented the choice and now I must make the right decision. Isn't this strange? Man normally has no problems taking something which is freely given, except the grace of God.
Take a look at Rom 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, At first glance this simple verse seem to contradict itself. How is it possible to believe and it not be a work?
The only possible answer is that belief was also a gift. It did not come out from the heart of a dead man. We did nothing when we believed. It was required for salvation but given as a gift .

In other words God unilaterally fulfilled his NC promises that He made to his covenant people! So easy to see and understand this, as it's written all over the bible!

 

[Rufus]

How do you know they are bots? It's just a guess. We have had this happen before. It's been going on for years.

Sounds like someone has far too much time on their hands.

 

[Cameron143]

No one here is arguing for mere outward obedience, so let’s set aside the straw men and stay focused on the obedience tied to volitional belief I wrote about. And let’s be clear, “salvation” always has a context. Israel was saved from enemies, famine, and exile, but the contextual salvation we're discussing is eternal life, which Scripture defines as knowing and obeying God.

Isaiah 1 doesn’t teach that obedience is impossible without spiritual life as you state. It teaches that God rejects hypocrisy. The call is not to wait for regeneration, but to repent and obey: “Wash yourselves… cease to do evil… learn to do good” Isaiah1:16–17. It speaks of men reasoning together with the Lord and being willing and obedient vs. refusing and rebelling Isaiah1:18-20. That’s clearly volitional obedience and it's being called for by the Lord.

If you're including me in arguing for volitional obedience outside of limitations, one, I, and most I read here do not agree that "free will" is philosophical freedom without limitations, and two, I don't agree with the erroneous limitations you insert into Scripture.

Deficiency in volitional belief is a determinist construct from erroneous interpretations of Scripture. Scripture presents pre-regenerate [true] volitional belief as the sole requirement for receiving grace.

Please. How does one have inward obedience with a corrupted heart? How does one obey the command to believe when he is carnal and not subject to the law? Fallen natural man is quite the super hero. I wonder why he was found cowering shamefully in the garden blaming everyone but himself. He's at the car lot still waiting for a benefactor.

 

[Cameron143]

So, you disagree with it.

That a Christian can act carnally? Sure. See it all the time in this thread. But the natural man always acts carnally. And that was the point.

 

[Rufus]

Listen to who?

If you believe God picks and chooses whom goes to Heaven and Hell and chooses the actions of humanity to fulfill His Will then you have described what the common definition of dictatorship is all about.

So if you believe after claiming election and predestination, which is choosing where all humans will spend eternity, is not dictatorship because of how someone explained it. Let me give you the greatest human offer known to mankind, ocean front property in the middle of Arizona. And it's on sale for a very special price just for you

Only by your carnal, profane, corrupt reasoning, which evidently has become your personal final authority for what you believe.

Moreover, your stupid objection clearly implies that God is somehow morally obligated to save ANYONE! Did God save the Egyptians when he rescued the Hebrews from their clutches? Was God interested in saving all the nations He drove out of the Land in order to keep Israel separate from those nations?

 

[Rufus]

Please. How does one have inward obedience with a corrupted heart? How does one obey the command to believe when he is carnal and not subject to the law? Fallen natural man is quite the super hero. I wonder why he was found cowering shamefully in the garden blaming everyone but himself. He's at the car lot still waiting for a benefactor.

Of course we are! We all take after CV5's superhero Adam. Like father like son, don't you know?

 

[studier]

Which is literally impossible for the proud to do, and this is why the precious gracious gift of the Fear of the Lord is necessary before anyone can believe.

And just how does the New Covenant fulfill what the Old initiated? What terms of this covenant do the NC people of God have to fulfill in order to enter into a saving, covenantal relationship with God? And to whom was this covenant made?

Currently pressing your new course re: humility and fear of the Lord after all your others have failed. The Fear of the Lord is also volitional Prov1:29. You know the NC is foretold in the OC, who it was made with, who it is applied to, and that it is entered into by responsive volitional belief as was the OC.

 

[lrs68]

So what!? You think your precious DNA is going to save you!? You think your DNA makes you something special, do you? The real question is: Are you a child of promise? Or are you a child of the slave woman who represents Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to earthly Jerusalem? How did that DNA thingy work out for Ishmael and Esau?

You can talk in circles all you want but you made God in the Dispensation of Grace into something He wasn't even in the LAW. The real question is are you saved?

 

[Magenta]

Which is literally impossible for the proud to do, and this is why the precious
gracious gift of the Fear of the Lord is necessary before anyone can believe.

And just how does the New Covenant fulfill what the Old initiated? What terms of this covenant
do the NC people of God have to fulfill in order to enter into a saving, covenantal relationship with God?
And to whom was this covenant made?

Scripture literally says sinful man is unable to obey and/or submit to God
but they ignore it, always, and act as if it is something we made up.

And then they get busy rewriting the texts that they don't like, to support their error.
It is really quite shocking how much they distort, contradict, and deny what is written.

Then they have the audacity to brag about how long they have studied to come to such error-ridden conclusions.

 

[lrs68]

Only by your carnal, profane, corrupt reasoning, which evidently has become your personal final authority for what you believe.

Moreover, your stupid objection clearly implies that God is somehow morally obligated to save ANYONE! Did God save the Egyptians when he rescued the Hebrews from their clutches? Was God interested in saving all the nations He drove out of the Land in order to keep Israel separate from those nations?

If I was speaking from the carnal mind I would be blind to how you have demolished the truth about THE MOST HIGH GOD. But I see and I call you out being filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Rufus]

Currently pressing your new course re: humility and fear of the Lord after all your others have failed. The Fear of the Lord is also volitional Prov1:29. You know the NC is foretold in the OC, who it was made with, who it is applied to, and that it is entered into by responsive volitional belief as was the OC.

Except when it isn't since the Fear of the Lord is not naturally in sinners (Jer 2:19) because no one has the godly disposition of heart to Fear the Lord! This is why the prophet wrote:

Jer 32:40-41
40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul.
ESV

Where are the conditions in this promise that the covenant people of God must fulfill before he puts the fear of Himself into their volitions (oops...I meant to say "hearts")?

Furthermore, who are the "them" and the "they" in v.40? Israel or all humanity w/o exception?