Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

The choice in the old covenant was not salvation. The choice was blessing in the land and physical life or calamity, enslavement, and physical death. The old covenant could not offer eternal life because of the weakness of human flesh.

Instead, eternal life was always by grace...Noah...through faith...Abraham. The physical offspring of Abraham didn't inherit eternal life by virtue of their lineage. It has always been the spiritual seed who were given eternal life.

There is a lot to be learned through the exodus, but it is both a story of salvation and deliverance.

Salvation is an OC concept. The choice of life in the Old Covenant was salvation through knowing and obeying God. 1John2:3 tells us obedience to God is knowing God. John 17 says knowing God is eternal life. The New Covenant in Christ fulfills what the Old Covenant initiated.

Men become spiritual seed not by lineage or decree, but by volitionally believing God.

 

[HeIsHere]

@Cameron143 and @NightTwister just did a bail-out when pressed on the HOW of Acts 2 matter of 3000 saved.

Speaks volumes.....

I have not seen much attempt to really exegete any verses in context, considering the original language or audience.
All they do is mine for proof text and lots of eisegesis. lol

If it was not for Sproul who championed and spread this "regeneration before faith" much like MacArthur, maybe this thread would not have gained any traction.

 

[Magenta]

What concerns me is the script you guys follow, almost in unison, if it were possible in an online format.

It is called "Scripture." I am not surprised you do not recognize it.

 

[NightTwister]

@Cameron143 and @NightTwister just did a bail-out when pressed on the HOW of Acts 2 matter of 3000 saved.

Speaks volumes.....

I answered. Yet another lie.

 

[BillyBob]

That's funny Jesus told lots and lots of spiritually dead people to believe.

Must have been a case of offering false hope, that happens sometimes. NOT!

The grace of God is a gift, given freely to the people of God. Therefore, how can you condition anything that’s free on anything you must do? It's simple, you cannot!
I say it is simple, but only if you ask the question from the standpoint of logic. But to man being dead in sin, it is one of the most difficult truths to understand.
Even to the seasoned Christian, we are constantly pulled back to the lie that we must do something to earn our salvation. However, this is nothing but Satan's lie. Did God really say that you are saved by grace apart from works?
It is so easy for prideful man to think that He has done a work to Gain God's favor. He looks at scripture and tells himself [I must believe]. Therefore, grace has only presented the choice and now I must make the right decision. Isn't this strange? Man normally has no problems taking something which is freely given, except the grace of God.
Take a look at Rom 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, At first glance this simple verse seem to contradict itself. How is it possible to believe and it not be a work?
The only possible answer is that belief was also a gift. It did not come out from the heart of a dead man. We did nothing when we believed. It was required for salvation but given as a gift.

 

[Cameron143]

and the point I am making is that there are some who are born again who are carnally minded ... are believers who are carnally minded any less carnal than natural man?

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

if the born again one chooses to walk after the flesh, he or she behaves just as the natural man ... the difference is that the believer can put off the old and put on the new just as instructed in Scripture ... but sometimes getting the believer to realize he or she has fallen into old habits (walking after the flesh) can be difficult.
.

Right. You changed the topic. The subject wasn't carnal Christians, but the natural man.

 

[studier]

And I was thinking the other day ... has this fact concerning the law changed? In our day and time, the Jews who live under the old covenant ... is the purpose of the old covenant still to bring them to Christ?

Part of the brilliance of the Law is that it is instructional. "Torah" is rooted in a word meaning instruction. It not only gives us God's standards of Righteousness, but therein teaches us things about God, and how we cannot live up to His Righteousness and thus are in need of His gracious gift of Righteousness only given in His Son.

With these realities about His Law in the opinion of some of us, we are failing in not teaching His Law. The reality is that some are affected by conscience and a desire to do good and the work of His Law He has had going on in the mind of the nations and we think He still does. It still eventuates and is summarized in the 2 greatest commandments - to love God and Neighbor - which Christ used to command Christian love for one another.

When I comment to you, as well as a few others here, I frequently pause for a moment not wanting to sound like I'm instructing you. Please take my posts in the spirit they are given.

 

[Magenta]

From Hebrews 10 verses 1 and 4, plus 1 Corinthians 5 verse 7 The law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves... because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Christ our Passover Lamb has been sacrificed for us. Thank you, Jesus!

 

[Magenta]

Hebrews 9 v 22 Leviticus 17 v 11 Under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

 

[Magenta]

John 1 verses 14 + 17 ~ The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[studier]

The only point I was making was the natural man is always carnal and not subject to the law. Do you believe he is subject to the law?

I guess one question would be why make the soulish man and the man living in a fleshly mindset the same thing? The word "soulish" is not in Rom8.

 

[Magenta]

Galatians 3 v 10 All who rely on works of the law are under a curse

 

[Genez]

If you press for elaboration, as you well know, they will admit no one can believe/have faith IN Christ Jesus, unless they are uniquely particularly activated first.

So, while they use the same words to make look like it is in line with scripture it really is not.

What they fail tot grasp is that the soul is a slave to the flesh.
That being born into a fallen body makes the soul depraved by oppression.
The soul minus the flesh is free to think what it wishes to. Be it good, or evil.
Evil, not sin. Sin originates with the flesh. Evil originates with our soul.
Jesus died for sin, not evil!

Salvation grace:

You may want to be a safe driver. "You" is your soul.
Your flesh is your vehicle.

If someone keeps pumping alcohol into your bloodstream? (depravity of the flesh)
Your soul can do nothing to change it, and you will drive recklessly. (total depravity)

Grace is God's power that will sober us up, allowing our soul can make sober choices about God drawing us.
It is by grace with our soul we believe. Not with our depravity.

Our soul can understand that we sin.
It becomes more obvious the older we become.

A main issue issue in salvation is knowing we are a sinner.
Knowing we are a sinner is not a spiritual matter.
It is a natural phenomenon knowable to the natural man.

When it says the natural man can not understand spiritual truths, it does not pertain to our awareness of being a sinner.
Being a sinner is known by all.
Our laws make us painfully aware of sin.
Even everyday laws.

What the natural man finds as foolishness is the Bible teachings designed to feed a born again believer with knowledge
that would benefit his spiritual health and well being.

Those who reject Jesus do so because they had already rejected God drawing them.
If it angers them? Its conviction, and not thinking it is foolishness.
Foolishness is mildly annoying at best. Not something that angers.

On the other hand.... Legalism takes what would normally be fluffed off as foolishness.
It is the legalism that angers them. Not what they see as foolishness.
Some get the two confused for the other.

This can be worked out over time.

 

[studier]

I don't know if anyone on this thread has noticed it as others on other threads have, but there are bots hacking the forum and using emojis to respond to posts. Some have been reporting them to the moderators.

 

[Genez]

The only point I was making was the natural man is always carnal and not subject to the law. Do you believe he is subject to the law?

But he is affected by knowing the consequences of the law.
That much will still hold an element of restraint if the police are well funded.

 

[Magenta]

I don't know if anyone on this thread has noticed it as others on other threads have, but there are bots hacking the forum and using emojis to respond to posts. Some have been reporting them to the moderators.

How do you know they are bots? It's just a guess. We have had this happen before. It's been going on for years.

 

[lrs68]

It is the arrogance in your response that I don't like, assuming you know their hearts and worship life is flat out arrogant and uncalled for

If someone can adhere to a doctrine and personal belief where God is a mixture between Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, and other Dictators similar to the Communist System have an incredible Praise and Worship ethic others should be jealous about then I am wrong. Until then I am certain God isn't judging me about this issue that has you wrinkled up over.

 

[Genez]

Having had contact with witches.
I have come to a conclusion.

Some have Christian influences in their growing up.
They know about certain teachings.

They also know how to attack and obfuscate what Christians desire clarified.
Knowing how, because they are inspired telepathically.
It is very subtle. They may even act like they want to be a friend.

Just a thought....

 

[Cameron143]

Salvation is an OC concept. The choice of life in the Old Covenant was salvation through knowing and obeying God. 1John2:3 tells us obedience to God is knowing God. John 17 says knowing God is eternal life. The New Covenant in Christ fulfills what the Old Covenant initiated.

Men become spiritual seed not by lineage or decree, but by volitionally believing God.

Salvation is certainly in the OT, but no one has ever been saved through keeping the old covenant. Outward obedience has never been what God considered obedience. If the inward reality is not present, one is only drawing near to God with their lips. Read God's address to Israel in Isaiah 1. God couldn't stand their outward worship of Him. Those without spiritual life have never actually obeyed. God isn't only worshipped in spirit and truth, but also obeyed in spirit and truth.

No one is arguing that belief isn't a volitional choice; only that choice isn't without limitations. Much like a person going to buy a vehicle. According to credit, job history, and a host of other factors, there is a limit to what one qualifies to be able to purchase. But if a benefactor comes along who pays in cash, you can obtain what wasn't previously available to you.

 

[Cameron143]

But he is affected by knowing the consequences of the law.
That much will still hold an element of restraint if the police are well funded.

Sure. A wonderful byproduct. It produces civility though, and not salvation.