It is the arrogance in your response that I don't like, assuming you know their hearts and worship life is flat out arrogant and uncalled for
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Amen. When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Of course when some FWers read that verse they automatically rewrite it so it says something other that what it actually says.
That passage has been correctly exegeted and de-Calvinized already. As you well know!
There may be some actual physical dementia involved, but the spiritual issue is nothing new - it's described in many words here and none of it is ignored by a perfect Godhead. Spiritual dementia (dementia having progressive decline) may be an interesting description to consider:
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "(COMMAND) Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from
His commands are really something. Some of those who change His Word say they are only descriptive - not to be obeyed - they just describe what a Christian is. If that were true, then how many Christians are posting here? Some know His commands are prescriptive - actual commands made to volitional people to be actually obeyed. Since this is the truth of the matter, then how much disobedience is being evidenced here? And how much straying from the truth 2Tim2:18 is here making so much of Paul's instruction pertinent, including v.25-26? And when the fingers start pointing, we'll all just claim v.19 thinking we're all doing His will.
Another view of the Exodus:
The Exodus is not the story of regeneration before response. It's the story of gracious deliverance before decision and choice. God brought Israel out of slavery not to declare them saved, but to invite them into covenantal life. He freed them in order to instruct them, and He instructed them in order to call them to choose life. Some did. Many did not. The initial freedom was real, but it was not final. For actual salvation and true life, God commanded them to choose life.
The way I read the Exodus, it conforms nicely to the soteriology of those who see Scripture instructing us that God provides an initial freedom from slavery - and even in this phase many struggle wanting to go back to the slavery - long enough to instruct people and bring them to the point of choosing life which is to choose so called regeneration which is actual salvation. He even puts up with them for decades of wandering and rebelliousness providing them opportunity after opportunity to choose life. Until He doesn't.
Note how @Rufus is using the word "deliverance" at times and not "salvation". It's because he knows he has a problem with his theory and that the Exodus was not Salvation to Eternal Life which required the Israelites to choose Life that was graciously offered to them even in their continuing rebelliousness.
The Exodus is not the story of regeneration before response. It's the story of gracious deliverance before decision and choice. God brought Israel out of slavery not to declare them saved, but to invite them into covenantal life. He freed them in order to instruct them, and He instructed them in order to call them to choose life. Some did. Many did not. The initial freedom was real, but it was not final. For actual salvation and true life, God commanded them to choose life.
The way I read the Exodus, it conforms nicely to the soteriology of those who see Scripture instructing us that God provides an initial freedom from slavery - and even in this phase many struggle wanting to go back to the slavery - long enough to instruct people and bring them to the point of choosing life which is to choose so called regeneration which is actual salvation. He even puts up with them for decades of wandering and rebelliousness providing them opportunity after opportunity to choose life. Until He doesn't.
Note how @Rufus is using the word "deliverance" at times and not "salvation". It's because he knows he has a problem with his theory and that the Exodus was not Salvation to Eternal Life which required the Israelites to choose Life that was graciously offered to them even in their continuing rebelliousness.
So, we once again need to go back to this metaphorical nonsense? Doesn't this always go back to the question of the impregnation being consensual?
Jesus negated this whole metaphorical line of reasoning John3:6 and rebuked a teacher of Israel for thinking it.
The choice in the old covenant was not salvation. The choice was blessing in the land and physical life or calamity, enslavement, and physical death. The old covenant could not offer eternal life because of the weakness of human flesh.
Instead, eternal life was always by grace...Noah...through faith...Abraham. The physical offspring of Abraham didn't inherit eternal life by virtue of their lineage. It has always been the spiritual seed who were given eternal life.
There is a lot to be learned through the exodus, but it is both a story of salvation and deliverance.
Acts 13:48 was rightly de-Calvinized. And what was the response? Willful obfuscation and irrational outright denials.
I would say that it has been aptly demonstrated that as far as the Reformed crew is concerned, there is little desire to actually learn. Rather, barking and tweeting passages and scripted dogma in mantra-like fashion is de rigeur.
Yes agree, I try to remember to swap out the word dead for "separated" since it does more clearly give the better meaning according to the context.
We need to always remember that their whole construct about "dead" is just that... a faulty construct to make the whole system fit together.
If you press for elaboration, as you well know, they will admit no one can believe/have faith IN Christ Jesus, unless they are uniquely particularly activated first.
So, while they use the same words to make look like it is in line with scripture it really is not.
What concerns me is the script you guys follow, almost in unison, if it were possible in an online format.
yep ... I love vs 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
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believers can be carnal as well (1 Cor 3) ... and carnally minded christians can and do fulfill the lusts of the flesh and struggle against the leading of the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16-17 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
God creates the new man within the born again one the moment he or she believes.Cameron143 said:
God also gives instruction to the believer to put off the old man (Eph 4:22; Col 3:9) and put on the new man (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10). This is something we are to do. God does not do it for us ... He has equipped us with what is needed in order to put off and put on, but the putting off/putting on is what the born again believer is to do.
If the believer does not put off the old, the works of the flesh (Gal 5:19-21; Eph 4:25-30; Col 3:8-9) will be evidenced in his or her life.
If the believer puts on the new man, the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23) ... the new man attributes (Col 3:12-17) will be evidenced in his or her life.
The carnally minded christian behaves just like the natural man until he or she turns to the Lord and submits to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
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There's no script. We just call out lies when we see them. If you stop lying, we won't have to do that.What concerns me is the script you guys follow, almost in unison, if it were possible in an online format.
@Cameron143 and @NightTwister just did a bail-out when pressed on the HOW of Acts 2 matter of 3000 saved.
Speaks volumes.....
The only point I was making was the natural man is always carnal and not subject to the law. Do you believe he is subject to the law?
Exactly. Very disturbing when you see it. And when you see it you can't miss it.....
the purpose of the old covenant was to bring them to Messiah (Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith – Gal 3:24). Those under old covenant were saved by grace through faith ... just as believers since Day of Pentecost under new covenant.
And I was thinking the other day ... has this fact concerning the law changed? In our day and time, the Jews who live under the old covenant ... is the purpose of the old covenant still to bring them to Christ?
Cameron143Instead said:
Wrong. If natural man was not spiritually dead - as in dead - then God wouldn't have said that He had made them alive, and would
therefore, have not written accordingly. You alter scripture to fit your personal preferences - very bad thing to do indeed.
If dead isn't dead, then alive isn't alive. But both are correct as written. "quickened" means made alive. Just because you choose to say
otherwise, doesn't make it so
[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
and the point I am making is that there are some who are born again who are carnally minded ... are believers who are carnally minded any less carnal than natural man?
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
if the born again one chooses to walk after the flesh, he or she behaves just as the natural man ... the difference is that the believer can put off the old and put on the new just as instructed in Scripture ... but sometimes getting the believer to realize he or she has fallen into old habits (walking after the flesh) can be difficult.
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