Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

John6:44 "all" is not in the verse. The inverse "no man" - masculine singular adjective - is in the verse.

John12:32 masculine plural noun - most literally "all [men]".

That's our definition apart from the desire of some - like yourself? - to redefine.

Hah...so God doesn't give "all" men to his Son! Good to see you agree on that.

The "most literally 'all' [men]" in Jn 12 is limited to both broad types of people in the world: Jews and Gentiles. The passage needs to be understood in its context. Both Jews and Gentiles (Greeks) in the chapter were seeking Christ, but not every single Jew and every single Greek w/o exception sought Him! Therefore, the context of the chapter itself qualifies the extent of "all men".

Moreover, God's grace that effectually draws many to Christ is given only to the humble, so my interpretation of John 12 comports nicely with context of the whole bible.

What I said immediately above also applies with equal force to God's gracious gift of the Fear of the Lord which was promised in the NC only to God's covenant people. For your info, God never made a redemptive covenant with the whole world in the distributive sense. Yet, the Fear of the Lord is an essential, vitally important component of God's saving grace.

Also, all the above harmonizes quite well with the fact that Christ laid down His life only for his FRIENDS/Sheep/Covenant People (Jn 15:13-14; Jn 10:11; Isa 53:4ff., respectively ), which hardly describes the God-hating, rebellious, hostile, proud world.

Finally, all the above neatly explains why Jesus explicitly omitted the "world", which conspires, plots and rages in anger against the Lord and His anointed (Ps 2:1ff. from His High Priestly Prayer in Jn 17.

BTW, if you need to have Jn 15:13-14 reconciled to Rom 5:6, give me a shout. I'll be glad to oblige you; for unlike you Libertinists, I don't ignore apparent contradictions.

 

[lrs68]

You're intentionally bearing false witness. Just because people in these churches do not worship the same as you do (and I have no idea how you do that) does not mean the worship is "dead." You judge what you do not know. This is a pattern with you.

Brother,
my God is alive, creates miracles, provides for me, keeps me safe, giving me eternal life, and the list is endless here. If that doesn't motivate anyone to worship God beyond sitting up from lying in a casket and shouting and praising God like king David did then we ain't serving the same God who is ALIVE and He is the KING of kings and LORD of lords and He's coming back very soon!

 

[GWH]

Some churches use a "Statement of Faith", which is different from a formally-recognized Creed/Confession.

Well, the SBC Statement of Faith is formally recognized, but as a creedal statement it is inadequate,
because a creed IMO attempts to state God's requirement for salvation or the foundational Gospel
without including numerous secondary doctrines that are not necessary to believe in order to be saved.
The nutshell statement of the Christian creed is Paul's answer to the jailer's question, "What must I do to be saved?",
which was "Believe in the Lord Jesus" (Acts 16:30-31, cf. 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6), which logically implies:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or Creator God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s grace or justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), at which moment God’s loving Holy Spirit of Christ indwells/baptizes the believer into the church (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5, 1Cor. 12:13).
5. Loving Christ Jesus as Lord (Luke 2:11), God the Son (Matt. 16:16) or God in the human dimension (Col. 2:9) means reflecting divine love as empowered by the Holy Spirit, thereby obeying His command to love one another (Matt. 7:21, 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2), which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

 

[studier]

What if you could attend a church that is independent and non-denominational?

Someone who God gifted to exegete Scripture to either confirm what has been excepted as truth?
Or, has the skill to show what the original languages had to say meant, and were misunderstood?

Otherwise. Without that? ... Denominations are stuck in sand up to their hips.

The Body of Christ should always be growing in understanding, not simply remaining on the same level of a previous generation.
Even if that previous generation did well for its own time, but had no answers for recent evils that have been raised up to try to penetrate us now. Evils which were not covered back then?

Do you want to still think like a teenager when you are forty? No. Does and adult go to a teenager for advice concerning what the teenager can not understand? Likewise, the Body of Christ is a living spiritual organism that is in the process of an ongoing growing and maturing experience.

We must learn to do better to overcome some of the mistakes of our youth.
And, there were mistakes made, because not enough understanding was yet gained.
Denominations are no different.

You want to attend a conventional church? Fine.
Bland Christianity. Luke warm. The church of Laodicea.

Or would you want to attend a church that was not standing still? One that is always growing in its depth of understanding
more and more of the Scriptures? One that would even correct itself when it realizes a previous error in its own thinking?
We never see the denominations correcting themselves. They end up calling others names instead.

Do you think God could provide such a church?
Well, He did with the Reformation such a thing..
And, they independently broke loose from the old tyranny.
But, they made mistakes in the heat of the battle.

Now we need some of their mistakes corrected as well.
The Reformation needs its own reformation today.

If not?

The Body of Christ will not continue to mature into the needed greater understanding which is needed to stay free.
For... Evil will always be advancing to overcome what victories Good had achieved in the past.

Now...

Do we fight wars today with the thinking and know-how of armies 200 years ago?
No! Spiritual warfare is no different!

Denominations are like following old war plans and tactics with outdated equipment. A system that at one time was very good to secure freedom in its day, but not good enough against the newly developed weapons of evil.

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:​

​

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. ​

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! ​

So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. ​

You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that ​

you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, ​

so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; ​

and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.​

​

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.​

grace and peace .........

A lot said and by commenting on one point or asking one question, I'm not meaning to minimize anything else you've said.

I like what you said about the Reformation needing its own reformation. During the course of my own studies after studying under your PT, I began to see the so-called Reformation as a continuing process that never really stopped, which is why we have the non-denominational systems we now have.

Question: Are you continuing to listen to RBT or to his son or to both?

 

[lrs68]

Yes and no. Creeds are generally accepted historical documents (e.g. Apostle's Creed). Statements of Faith vary from church to church, and would generally apply only to that church.

Typically the statement of faith includes many principles that most Creeds include. But your answer is good enough for me.

 

[BillyBob]

Well, the SBC Statement of Faith is formally recognized, but as a creedal statement it is inadequate,

All creeds and confessions are inadequate when compared to scripture itself. Even the Apostles' Creed which dates back to around the 5th century is inadequate to state all truths.
This must be "bash all creeds and confessions day"! Get a life!

 

[Magenta]

which will eventually achieve spiritual maturity on earth and heaven after Christ returns at God’s resurrection (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Phil. 3:12-16, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

Your verse citations make no sense, having no connection to what you link them to (spiritual maturity, Christ returns at God’s resurrection, etc).

 

[lrs68]

Does your church agree with the words of The Apostles Creed?

Well, first of all unfortunately the Apostles themselves didn't make the Creed.

But if we remove person and use God is Spirit like it specifically states from Jesus lips and we and ignore just a couple other man made idealisms and stick directly to the Bible then YES!

 

[NightTwister]

Brother,
my God is alive, creates miracles, provides for me, keeps me safe, giving me eternal life, and the list is endless here. If that doesn't motivate anyone to worship God beyond sitting up from lying in a casket and shouting and praising God like king David did then we ain't serving the same God who is ALIVE and He is the KING of kings and LORD of lords and He's coming back very soon!

Once again, you're basing your faith on your feelings, and judging others who don't have the exact same feelings that you do. I really hope that's now what you teach others.

 

[lrs68]

Once again, you're basing your faith on your feelings, and judging others who don't have the exact same feelings that you do. I really hope that's now what you teach others.

No, I am basing my faith on truth and experience and I owe God everything and worshipping God should be something that when people witness they should walk away thinking that person truly LOVES their God. They shouldn't walk away thinking those people have no clue who God is. That is a FACT and I don't care if you like it or not.

 

[NightTwister]

No, I am basing my faith on truth and experience and I owe God everything and worshipping God should be something that when people witness they should walk away thinking that person truly LOVES their God. They shouldn't walk away thinking those people have no clue who God is. That is a FACT and I don't care if you like it or not.

We're done here. Have a great day.

 

[BillyBob]

That is a FACT and I don't care if you like it or not.

That says a lot about you!

 

[Magenta]

Question: Are you continuing to listen to RBT or to his son or to both?

Maybe you two could start a new thread.

 

[lrs68]

That says a lot about you!

I hope so because we serve the SAME GOD and if you honor God with some pansy praise and worship after everything HE has done for you then someone should question you as well!

 

[studier]

Hah...so God doesn't give "all" men to his Son! Good to see you agree on that.

The "most literally 'all' [men]" in Jn 12 is limited to both broad types of people in the world: Jews and Gentiles. The passage needs to be understood in its context. Both Jews and Gentiles (Greeks) in the chapter were seeking Christ, but not every single Jew and every single Greek w/o exception sought Him! Therefore, the context of the chapter itself qualifies the extent of "all men".

Moreover, God's grace that effectually draws many to Christ is given only to the humble, so my interpretation of John 12 comports nicely with context of the whole bible.

What I said immediately above also applies with equal force to God's gracious gift of the Fear of the Lord which was promised in the NC only to God's covenant people. For your info, God never made a redemptive covenant with the whole world in the distributive sense. Yet, the Fear of the Lord is an essential, vitally important component of God's saving grace.

Also, all the above harmonizes quite well with the fact that Christ laid down His life only for his FRIENDS/Sheep/Covenant People (Jn 15:13-14; Jn 10:11; Isa 53:4ff., respectively ), which hardly describes the God-hating, rebellious, hostile, proud world.

Finally, all the above neatly explains why Jesus explicitly omitted the "world", which conspires, plots and rages in anger against the Lord and His anointed (Ps 2:1ff. from His High Priestly Prayer in Jn 17.

BTW, if you need to have Jn 15:13-14 reconciled to Rom 5:6, give me a shout. I'll be glad to oblige you; for unlike you Libertinists, I don't ignore apparent contradictions.

I understand the theory and why @Cameron143 said we needed to define "all". Whether you or he or anyone steps in to redefine the masculine plural "all [men]" doesn't really matter. It's still redefining the word to suit a system. It says, "all [men]" and anything else is redefinition. There are different parsing and wording that could have been used to state what you desire this to state.

Re: "libertinists" - are you sure you don't mean "libertarians"? And even then, I'd reject either one in favor of something that simply says I see in God's Word that unbelievers choose to believe or to reject God's offer of grace. That doesn't make me a libertarian, and it certainly doesn't make me a libertine. And FWer doesn't make me an advocate of that label with all its philosophical baggage. In discussions with you and a few others here, a non-determinist works just fine. A Biblical Christian would be more accurate but not expected from you.

 

[Cameron143]

Eternity does not have a past.

It's a phrase that simply means before creation.

 

[Cameron143]

John6:44 "all" is not in the verse. The inverse "no man" - masculine singular adjective - is in the verse.

John12:32 masculine plural noun - most literally "all [men]".

That's our definition apart from the desire of some - like yourself? - to redefine.

John 6:44 says the Father must draw. It also says those drawn will be raised on the last day. Do you believe this is referring to those who are saved?

John 12:32 says if Jesus is lifted He will draw all men to Himself. Is this a different drawing? The same? Is all men in the distributive sense? Is the all every member of a specific group?

 

[Magenta]

It's a phrase that simply means before creation.

It is a recognizable phrase.

 

[Cameron143]

I understand the theory and why @Cameron143 said we needed to define "all". Whether you or he or anyone steps in to redefine the masculine plural "all [men]" doesn't really matter. It's still redefining the word to suit a system. It says, "all [men]" and anything else is redefinition. There are different parsing and wording that could have been used to state what you desire this to state.

Re: "libertinists" - are you sure you don't mean "libertarians"? And even then, I'd reject either one in favor of something that simply says I see in God's Word that unbelievers choose to believe or to reject God's offer of grace. That doesn't make me a libertarian, and it certainly doesn't make me a libertine. And FWer doesn't make me an advocate of that label with all its philosophical baggage. In discussions with you and a few others here, a non-determinist works just fine. A Biblical Christian would be more accurate but not expected from you.

All of a particular group is plural.

Jesus was in fact lifted up. All men since that time have not even heard of Jesus. So in what sense is drawn used for an individual who never heard of Christ?

 

[lrs68]

All of a particular group is plural.

Jesus was in fact lifted up. All men since that time have not even heard of Jesus. So in what sense is drawn used for an individual who never heard of Christ?

Jesus is still continually being lifted up when He is truly worshipped and the [Lost] witness it or whenever the Gospel is preached. So the circumference of ALL MEN is changing and it will be that way until everyone has heard the Gospel preached.