Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

So...being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world...means we were always going to be saved? There was never a chance that we wouldn't be included in the body of Christ?

The plan was chosen outside of time, to be offered in time. Individuals in time then make a choice to either receive or refuse the offering of the plan during their time.

Individuals are never forced to choose to receive or refuse the offering of the plan, neither outside of time nor inside of it, as this would invalidate both the plan and their choice.

 

[Mem]

Sentence diagrams might be helpful.

God (Who) chose (what) us (whom) in Christ (how) before the foundation of the world (when) to be holy and blameless (why) in His Presence (where).

How did this become "God chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world"?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
I would say that these men were already saved, when they fell trembling before the Lord asking "WHAT MUST WE DO". They knew that they could not save themselves. This seems to be a truth which escapes FWers!

please note that the words "you will be saved" are in the future tense ... so these men were not "already saved" when they asked "WHAT MUST WE DO"

Acts 16:

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved [verb - future tense], and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.


vs 32 – Paul and Silas preached the Word of the Lord to the jailer and his household.

vs 33 – they were baptized because they believed as shown in vs 34. They believed after the Word of the Lord was preached as shown in vs 32.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Salvation is for the man that worketh not, not for the man who works. “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for Righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

What these verses in Romans 4 teach is that faith is not works ...

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
.

 

[Genez]

So why doesn't Romans 8:29 say what God foreknew instead of whom God foreknew? Why make the point in Romans 9 that Jacob was loved and Esau hated before they were born? Why did God tell Moses He will have mercy sovereignly? Why the big deal about the potter sovereignly choosing how to make each vessel?

Whom God foreknew, speaks of those whom He knows would believe.
Jacob and Esau were a totally different example of God's foreknowledge at work.

Why do you have such a hard time with this?

 

[Cameron143]

The plan was chosen outside of time, to be offered in time. Individuals in time then make a choice to either receive or refuse the offering of the plan during their time.

Individuals are never forced to choose to receive or refuse the offering of the plan, neither outside of time nor inside of it, as this would invalidate both the plan and their choice.

I have no problem with volition. The problem I have with men employing that volition to seek God is because of his fallen nature. So I believe God woos them just like every groom does for His bride. So the choice to believe is made by the individual quite freely because their love is returned to the One who has set His affection upon them and manifested His to them. Far from a shotgun wedding, Christ's brides can't wait to get to the altar.

 

[cv5]

The plan was chosen outside of time, to be offered in time. Individuals in time then make a choice to either receive or refuse the offering of the plan during their time.

Individuals are never forced to choose to receive or refuse the offering of the plan, neither outside of time nor inside of it, as this would invalidate both the plan and their choice.

And there we have it.....
Behold and take note oh ye Calvinists.

1Pe 1:20 - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[cv5]

Sentence diagrams might be helpful.

God (Who) chose (what) us (whom) in Christ (how) before the foundation of the world (when) to be holy and blameless (why) in His Presence (where).

How did this become "God chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world"?

The plan. There it is. In bold.

Eph 1:4 -
According as (he-hath-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-world), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Genez]

So why doesn't Romans 8:29 say what God foreknew instead of whom God foreknew? Why make the point in Romans 9 that Jacob was loved and Esau hated before they were born? Why did God tell Moses He will have mercy sovereignly? Why the big deal about the potter sovereignly choosing how to make each vessel?

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, ​

that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. ​

Predestine to be conformed to the Image of His Son? = Means?

The Church in our resurrection body, having a body just like His own glorious body!

He also predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son!​

​

grace and peace ......

 

[Cameron143]

Whom God foreknew, speaks of those whom He knows would believe.
Jacob and Esau were a totally different example of God's foreknowledge at work.

Why do you have such a hard time with this?

I don't have a hard time with any of it. It's plain as day to me. And while you told me who the whom is, you didn't explain why God would say whom He foreknew rather than what He foreknew about whom. The plain language of the text says foreknowing whom. That's talking about people, and not facts about people.

Telling me that Jacob and Esau are different example of foreknowledge and not telling me why doesn't really answer my question. Nor did it answer the questions about the demonstration of God's sovereignty in the arena of mercy or forming vessels of mercy and the vessels fit for destruction.

 

[Cameron143]

And there we have it.....
Behold and take note oh ye Calvinists.

1Pe 1:20 - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Keep going...who by Him believe in God...being born again by the word of God...

 

[cv5]

So why doesn't Romans 8:29 say what God foreknew instead of whom God foreknew? Why make the point in Romans 9 that Jacob was loved and Esau hated before they were born? Why did God tell Moses He will have mercy sovereignly? Why the big deal about the potter sovereignly choosing how to make each vessel?

Your total misapprehension (actually inversion) of EVERY ONE of those entries (ALL OF THEM) is a manifestation of your shocking abysmal Biblical illiteracy.

The failures are truly epic and never cease. You are literally batting zero and have been as long as I have known you.

You would think that a 100% failure rate 100% of the time would be nearly impossible. But nope. Against all odds you have achieved the unthinkable.

Your collaborators are pretty much neck and neck with you. It's truly incredible.

And BTW, all of those passages have already been RIGHTLY EXEGETED on this thread and others. Over and over again.

Seems like a tragic comedy that will have a sad ending.

 

[Cameron143]

The plan. There it is. In bold.

Eph 1:4 -
According as (he-hath-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-world), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Right. Still can't get away from us being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[Cameron143]

Your total misapprehension (actually inversion) of EVERY ONE of those entries (ALL OF THEM) is a manifestation of your shocking abysmal Biblical illiteracy.

The failures are truly epic and never cease. You are literally batting zero and have been as long as I have known you.

You would think that a 100% failure rate 100% of the time would be nearly impossible. But nope. Against all odds you have achieved the unthinkable.

Your collaborators are pretty much neck and neck with you. It's truly incredible.

And BTW, all of those passages have already been RIGHTLY EXEGETED on this thread and others. Over and over again.

Seems like a tragic comedy that will have a sad ending.

So a person is wrong when they ask questions? That makes sense.

 

[cv5]

Sentence diagrams might be helpful.

God (Who) chose (what) us (whom) in Christ (how) before the foundation of the world (when) to be holy and blameless (why) in His Presence (where).

How did this become "God chose us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world"?

There it is again....."the plan".
Do you see it?

Rom 9:11 -
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that (the-purpose-of-God-according-to-election) might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

 

[cv5]

So a person is wrong when they ask questions? That makes sense.

They are wrong when they refuse to see/accept/embrace the correct exegesis when it is provided.

Which it has been. Many many times over.

 

[Cameron143]

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, ​

that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. ​

Predestine to be conformed to the Image of His Son? = Means?

The Church in our resurrection body, having a body just like His own glorious body!

He also predestined us to be conformed to the image of his Son!​

​

grace and peace ......

Right. You've dealt with the the predestination part. No problem there. Those He foreknew isn't God looking into the future and knowing they will or will not receive Him. That's WHAT God foreknew, not WHOM he foreknew.

 

[Cameron143]

They are wrong when they refuse to see/accept/embrace the correct exegesis when it is provided.

Which it has been. Many many times over.

What makes you think they do? Because they disagree with you? You didn't take the time to answer my questions. You merely berated me. Not exactly being conformed to the image of Christ?

 

[Magenta]

So a person is wrong when they ask questions? That makes sense.

No, you are wrong when the demonically possessed God blasphemer says you are just because he says you are.

It does not mean you are wrong. It just means he says so.

The guy who claims he is right, after telling us God raped Mary, and is an unjust
tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their will. Yeah. That guy.

 

[Mem]

The plan. There it is. In bold.

Eph 1:4 -
According as (he-hath-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-world), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

He chose us to be holy and without blame before Him in love (in Him).

Does this change the original intent of the message?