Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

True and no offense intended - and hope that I did so too, but it was nice to see another scripture clearly
and specifically refute their bedrock claim about being able to choose based upon their free will.

Oh, no offence at all, Roger... just saying that this truth has been repeated a lot and rejected as many times by FWers.

They think to have confounded the wisdom of God with their own! Who'd have thunk it???

 

[Rufus]

Did you feel the power so you believed it was God?
You still chose and confirmed it within yourself.

I have never denied that one of the four faculties ALL men possess w/o exception is volition -- albeit a will that is seated in the wicked, corrupt and evil hearts of humanity.

And, yes, I did "feel the power" of God when I believed. I was literally overwhelmed by the presence of the Holy Spirit within me, as I sat in my car crying uncontrollably for several minutes over my utter sinfulness against an infinitely holy God. Looking back at that watershed moment in my life, I can now see that God graciously planted the fear of Himself in my heart that moved me to pray to him, ask his forgiveness, and to save me. I knew back then as I still do today that ultimately by His doing, I'm in Christ Jesus. Did I make a decision to trust in Him and to repent? Of course, I did! But it wasn't by any innate power of my own that I did that!

 

[Rufus]

We are a victim in respect to the corruption in the flesh, Jn.3:6 but how our minds react to that corruption in the light of God's grace, is our own doing. (grace always precedes and initiates) We choose to sin of our own will. In most instances, it is due to our ignorance so this is why Peter tells us to grow in the knowledge (gnosis - ie. data input) of God's word. 2Peter 3:18
His light dispels the darkness (of mind) and His grace (power and will) controls the weakened flesh in the unbeliever that he may choose freely. In the believer, we have the Spirit indwelling the body permanently to do this job of controlling the flesh, yet the (believers) mind that sets itself on the flesh is in no better position than an unbeliever who rejects the grace given.

Ultimately the Cross proves sin is not the heart of the issue but the evil desire to reject God's word for one's own.

And evil desires are not sinful???

 

[Magenta]

I have never denied that one of the four faculties ALL men possess w/o exception is volition --
albeit a will that is seated in the wicked, corrupt and evil hearts of humanity.

Fwers seem to have an extremely difficult time accepting the Scriptural truth of that latter part... if at all!

Some would rather mock it.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[Magenta]

And evil desires are not sinful???

John 3 verse 6, Romans 8 verse 7, Galatians 5 verse 17, 2 Timothy 3 verse 13, Romans 3 verse 18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Magenta]

Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Magenta]

There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26

 

[Magenta]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[Magenta]

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

One doesn't have to understand the outworking of salvation to be saved. They only have to believe.

So when Magenta posted what she posted (and continues to post) concerning fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, she is not saying they are not born again? ... is this true @Magenta???

And if the criteria for salvation was doctrinal perfection, no one is saved.

I believe we are both in agreement that the criteria for salvation is belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There's also a difference between functional judgment and final judgment. We all make functional judgements. Only Christ is qualified to make final judgments.
And nothing anyone posts offends me. That's not to say people aren't offensive sometimes and there are laws against being offensive. There are none against not taking offense.

so rolleyes and smh do not offend ... huh ... like I said, so many rules/regulations to follow [quote the whole post ... if you're not responding to the whole post, point that out ... rolleyes/smh offend ... rolleyes/smh don't offend, etc., etc., ad naseum] ...

now I'm smh because apparently the only rules folks do not have to follow are the ones wherein God tells us how we are to behave toward our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ ...

James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous
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[reneweddaybyday]

Believing there is the beginning stage of God's drawing.
It is sometimes referred to as "God consciousness."

right ... I believe God draws mankind through His creation exhibiting His eternal power and Godhead ... as well as having given us His Word whereby we can read and learn those things He wants us to know about Himself ... as well as faithful believers preaching and teaching His Word. I'm thankful God continues to draw throughout the lifetime. Look at the malefactor who hung on a cross next to Jesus.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Are you a total stranger to God's effectual power in your life? You have never existentially experienced his awesome grace within your heart, mind and soul?

According to what some of these free willers have said they have not experienced God in the way you describe (in the depths of their soul) ... they also make plain that it is through their own wisdom in the flesh that they came to know Him and decided to believe in Him, which of course again (once again!!!!!!) flies in the face of what Scripture actually teaches... But that error of theirs is central to their false doctrine.

I asked for clarification because I was not sure if Cameron143 was referring to a specific tenet of doctrine he holds to or if he was referring to the general understanding of the words.

and fyi ... I am fully aware that the Lord Jesus Christ is in me ...

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I have passed the test ... have you passed the test, Rufus? ... have you passed the test, Magenta? ... I have to ask based upon the carnality exhibited by you.
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[reneweddaybyday]

[quote"Rufus, post: 5577110, member: 329516"]So...divine power is power that inherently resides in the fallen nature all human beings? We all come into this world innately possessing this divine power, do we? Prove it from scripture.[/quote]
praying you read Scripture with more comprehension that what you exhibit in the pages of this thread, Rufus ...

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power [Greek = dynamis = strength, ability, power; inherent power] of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel of Christ is the dynamis of God ... that was my answer to the question asked.
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[sawdust]

And evil desires are not sinful???

James 1:15
Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

FTFM!

FTFY!
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[Jordon]

I am Jewish and raised understanding and knowing about the Fall all of my life so it's not a victim mentality but just how it is and you need God to overcome it.

Do you find rest in Jesus, when you come to Jesus for rest do you find peace,
Do you then knowingly know the change when you evaluate those feelings.
And as you come to know the rest the lords gives do you then knowingly believe out of choice, or it it something you know.

Could people use that knowing change also for other reasons and could that knowing change happen for other reasons,

Could there be other knowing changes you've experienced

 

[lrs68]

Not sure you understand how belief is formed.

If a new idea is presented to me, I run it through the filter of the mind and assimilate it and contrast it with my current beliefs that I already hold. I also send it through the filter of my heart and the emotions there. Then I either believe it or not.

What I don't do is make a conscious choice. It either agrees with whatever is already present or it does not. I never say to myself, "Self, should we believe this or not." I simply believe it or I don't.

I may make a choice to voice the belief or not. I may make a choice to investigate further and get more information, but once all these things are done, I either believe it or I don't.

I am saying anything to human beings is new at first before it becomes something we absolutely believe in.

It's HOW GOD made us.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Auditory hallucinations are a common symptom of mental health conditions like schizophrenia and/or bipolar disorder.

smh ...

James 3:8-11 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?


Matt 7:17b ... a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
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[lrs68]

I have never denied that one of the four faculties ALL men possess w/o exception is volition -- albeit a will that is seated in the wicked, corrupt and evil hearts of humanity.

And, yes, I did "feel the power" of God when I believed. I was literally overwhelmed by the presence of the Holy Spirit within me, as I sat in my car crying uncontrollably for several minutes over my utter sinfulness against an infinitely holy God. Looking back at that watershed moment in my life, I can now see that God graciously planted the fear of Himself in my heart that moved me to pray to him, ask his forgiveness, and to save me. I knew back then as I still do today that ultimately by His doing, I'm in Christ Jesus. Did I make a decision to trust in Him and to repent? Of course, I did! But it wasn't by any innate power of my own that I did that!

Yes, we did and do feel the Power and Presence of God when we first begin to believe. That is affirmation for us and our confidence in God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm a bit surprised how much they complain about having their very own words reflected back to them to the pont of disliking being called free willers ... I mean, are not "free will" their very own words?

hah! ... says the one who recoils at being called calvinist ...

I have asked for a definition of the term "freewill" ... "freeweillers" ... "FWers" ... and every definition provided is not something I believe ... so, under definitions provided by you, I am not a "FWer".
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