Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[HeIsHere]

the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...is specifically what Paul wrote. And when you read it word for word it's clear that the portion...to everyone who believes is a choice.

Thank you, get so tired of the rephrasing and the eisegesis.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If the gospel is the power of God to only those who believe, how can one say the grace that enables the freedom of choice is extended to those who do not believe?

Do you think the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation is any less powerful if someone does not believe it? How many times did you hear the gospel before you believed? The gospel was just as powerful the first time you heard it as it was the time you heard it and actually believed it.

As I have stated over and over in the pages of this thread:

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those who believe receive the blessing.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the consequence.
..

 

[BillyBob]

the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...is specifically what Paul wrote. And when you read it word for word it's clear that the portion...to everyone who believes is a choice.

Seems to me that you are saying that we are not saved by grace alone. In your world it must be grace + an act of man!

 

[Jordon]

the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...is specifically what Paul wrote. And when you read it word for word it's clear that the portion...to everyone who believes is a choice.

The Gospel is a devine power that's for sure.

Are you saying they can simply believe by choice ?

 

[BillyBob]

Any opposition to the grace and mercy of God in election comes from the satanic lie that man would not die, and man’s subsequent belief that he is not dead. Any opposition to grace and mercy is mans’ shaking his fist at the Sovereign God and saying ‘I can choose to be saved, I am not dead’.
Man’s prideful belligerence toward the true God is seen in the religions that have come out of the desperately wicked heart of man, in that each and every one of them state that man must do in order to get saved and/or stay saved.

**MDB**
to everyone who believes is not a choice, it is a gift!.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I didn't distract from anything. I drew an ANALOGY between what you said re Gen 15 about the chronological order of the Genesis narrative re Abraham and the chronological order of Paharaoh's hardened heart in Ex 3ff.

rolleyes ... so when I re-focus your attention back to the ongoing discussion concerning Abraham, that is me having "created that rabbit trail to distract from the question" ... but when you bring up your pharaoh nonsense to distract from the question, that is you drawing "an ANALOGY" ... got it.

Of course, the reason I made this analogy is because I know you'd prefer to dip your entire body in a vat of acid before you would agree that your logic re the chronology of the Abraham narrative in Gen applies with equal force to Exodus narrative re the hardened heart of Pharaoh. But You're far too PROUD to admit your error and how you inconsistently interpret scripture.

I believe you "made this analogy" because you have no verse showing that God gave faith to Abraham before He believed.

also ... fyi ... the one who is "far too PROUD" is the one who bellows about "argument from silence" ... then tries to analogize the record concerning Abraham believing what God told him.

Surely, you believe that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first

yep. Read Romans 1:21-32 ... God reveals the whole sequence ... very revealing study showing exactly what occurs from foolish heart being darkened to reprobate mind.

and God knew this because He peered into his cosmic crystal ball; therefore, God's prediction was based solely on his prescience and not divine prerogative, even though the latter is what what Ex 4 teaches!

please provide the post submitted by me wherein I stated what you claim. Thank you.
.

 

[HeIsHere]

If the gospel is the power of God to only those who believe, how can one say the grace that enables the freedom of choice is extended to those who do not believe?

As @reneweddaybyday keeps informing you, if it is God's plan to reveal Himself to His creatures, as described in Romans 1

it is completely reasonable and follows scripture that humans retain the ability to respond to the Good News.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Grace appearing is not the same thing as grace given to all and experienced by all in the human heart.

Please be mindful of what Scripture says about grace appearing ... Scripture says that grace appeared to all men

The purpose of grace appearing to all men is to teach ... that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world ... sadly, all do not heed the instruction ... but that does not mean that God's grace has not appeared to all men to teach all men.

It appears you have never received God's grace since you're far too proud to admit that God has given his grace only to his humble chosen people in eternity. When you don't like a particular truth, you just sweep it under the rug, don't you? So honest of you...

the one who "just sweep[s truth] under the rug" is the one who does not acknowledge that "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" ... just as Titus 2 teaches.


Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Cameron143 said:

If the gospel is the power of God to only those who believe, how can one say the grace that enables the freedom of choice is extended to those who do not believe?​

lrs68 said:

What's to say that it's extended to everyone but the majority reject it like Jesus explains in choosing the wide\narrow paths?​

The language of the text precludes this understanding. The gospel is only the power of God to those who believe. The text doesn't say that based on the response of the individual, power will or will not be experienced.

The "language of the text" does not preclude the understanding of lrs68 concerning the gospel ... the "language of the text" actually precludes your understanding:

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those who believe receive the blessing.

Those who reject receive the consequence.
.

 

[Cameron143]

Believing is the individual response.
And by the way the verse does not state only.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
Romans 1:16

Are you saying the gospel is the power of God to those who don't believe?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

As explained earlier, the grace of God appearing and the grace of God experienced are 2 different things. The cross is an appearing of the grace of God. Salvation is an experience of the grace of God experienced.

salvation is afforded to all who believe the gospel of Christ:

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... those who believe receive the blessing.

The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the consequence.
.

 

[Cameron143]

the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...is specifically what Paul wrote. And when you read it word for word it's clear that the portion...to everyone who believes is a choice.

You've rewritten the verse to be...the gospel is the power of God to those who choose to believe. Hence, the power is no longer in the gospel but in the choice of the individual. I don't believe this is what the verse teaches. I believe the power of God rests in the gospel.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you think the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation is any less powerful if someone does not believe it? How many times did you hear the gospel before you believed? The gospel was just as powerful the first time you heard it as it was the time you heard it and actually believed it.

As I have stated over and over in the pages of this thread:

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those who believe receive the blessing.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the consequence.
..

I believe those who remain in unbelief never experienced the power of God when the gospel was shared.

 

[Jordon]

You've rewritten the verse to be...the gospel is the power of God to those who choose to believe. Hence, the power is no longer in the gospel but in the choice of the individual. I don't believe this is what the verse teaches. I believe the power of God rests in the gospel.

That's right the gospel is the message of the devine power.

Tho it seems choice should be held above believing, as you keep getting bombarded with the same question.

With all these questions you keep getting asked from peoples own personal beliefs I'm beginning to wonder why they keep looking to you for answers ?

 

[Genez]

And what "bias" would that be? I quote a passage out John 8 and that makes me bias!? I supose in your universe, Jesus wasn't a natural descendant of Abraham either, was he?

You say such stupid things, leaving very low hanging fruit out there for easy pickings...and now you accuse me of being biased for quoting a passage that proves you're dead wrong! Fine! Color me BIASED for the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH! Happy now?

What church?

We all have a bias.

 

[Genez]

But God has no limits. Ultimately ALL understanding comes from Him.

And you don't read out of a bible translation? Are you another original languge guru? Both Hebrew and Greek, I suppose?

One who is a teacher of teachers..
One of the very best!

https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

God provides for those who seek Him with all their heart. Jeremiah 29:13


.......
.......

 

[Genez]

so just to be clear you really believe people you are in disagreement here see them selves as elected and your not ?

Which person and what was said

I do not even know how you got that from me.

Makes no sense.

 

[Cameron143]

As @reneweddaybyday keeps informing you, if it is God's plan to reveal Himself to His creatures, as described in Romans 1

it is completely reasonable and follows scripture that humans retain the ability to respond to the Good News.

That's 1 view, but Romans 1 doesn't say that knowledge through creation and conscience is the power of God unto salvation. So while this knowledge is available to all, it is only sufficient to make man accountable, and not sufficient for salvation.

 

[Cameron143]

Cameron143 said:

If the gospel is the power of God to only those who believe, how can one say the grace that enables the freedom of choice is extended to those who do not believe?​

lrs68 said:

What's to say that it's extended to everyone but the majority reject it like Jesus explains in choosing the wide\narrow paths?​

The "language of the text" does not preclude the understanding of lrs68 concerning the gospel ... the "language of the text" actually precludes your understanding:

Romans 1:16-19 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those who believe receive the blessing.

Those who reject receive the consequence.
.

How many who heard the gospel and remained in unbelief experienced the power of God?

 

[HeIsHere]

That's 1 view, but Romans 1 doesn't say that knowledge through creation and conscience is the power of God unto salvation. So while this knowledge is available to all, it is only sufficient to make man accountable, and not sufficient for salvation.

I seriously do not know whether to laugh or cry.