Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

As long as you accept that Israel was chosen but the Gentiles were grafted in later on.

The Gentiles that believe become the seed of Abraham.
Not, the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Abraham was a gentile believer. Not as Israel.
It was through Jacob that such believers became Israel.
Jacob becomes Israel: Isaac's son, Jacob, wrestled with a divine being and was given the new name "Israel."

Being the spiritual seed of Abraham does not make a gentile into Israel!

 

[Jordon]

Not entirely true! God's revealed Dispositional, Preceptive and Decretive will is known by us. It's only the secret things of God that we do not and cannot know.

Completely true for me the reason you don't know whom God will save before there saved.

We can pluck straws at whom he won't save, but that would be us claiming his sovereign will that is known only in him for ourselves.. and what we would be claiming for ourselves is determining what point he hands a person over to the son. Which we do not know, how they are believing when they say they believe, It's like an unsaved person going to church he prays buy still doubts God even exists. Only you don't know he's unsaved. You would assume he is tho.

Really tho the hardest thing is a person accepting they have to be chosen, because salvation is also an act of grace seen only as an unmerited favor that they where not worthy of, or that not one person is in a different position to that.

Salvation is still a free gift and still an unmerited favor even after the father has chosen to hand the person over to son.

Because it hims that's saving you. He is giving you the precious gift of life. He's also giving everyone a free gift of for-knowing him, people can't know him unless he knows you. Which is a time when God will for-know.
The person needs to believe and accept God's will in order to be saved, because the precious gift of life was bought for a price. Which again comes at a time of God for-knowing you.

That time of God for-knowing you will include all that needs to happen for the change to take place, and throughout that time of for-knowing there will opportunities to choose from a person, but those choices are his choices to give in the first place.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That's not what John 9:3 says. It says...that the works of God may be manifest in him. It doesn't say to fulfill prophecy or authenticate Jesus as Messiah. So there is another reason given by scripture why Jesus did miracles.

oh my goodness ... the Lord Jesus Christ doing the works of God ... such as healing the blind ... is fulfillment of prophecy ... whether you believe it or not.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You just can't admit you are wrong.

maybe you don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ spreads His love abroad through His body of believers, and if that is the case, so sad that you won't share His fruit with those who are so lost in this world ...
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

None of which deals with what we were talking about. I just showed you from scripture another reason for Jesus' miracles. Why can't you just accept it?

and I showed you that the man did not believe in Messiah until Messiah preached the gospel to him ... the miracle of healing pointed to the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah, but the man did not believe until he was told that Jesus was the Son of Man (another name for Messiah).

The reason the man did not recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as the One Who had healed him of his blindness was because the man never saw Jesus when Jesus healed him. Jesus had anointed his eyes with clay and told him to wash in the pool of Siloam. The man did not see until after he had washed. And he did not believe until after the gospel was preached to him.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There's nothing in those texts that speak to man's innate ability. You read your assumption into those passages.

oh ... I thought you were beyond the stage of needing to be born again ... that's why I provided verses pertaining to the born again one.
.

 

[Magenta]

Do you think Abraham was a God-fearer?

When they arrived at the place God had designated, Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood. He bound his son Isaac and placed him on the altar, atop the wood. Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. Just then the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.” Then Abraham looked up and saw behind him a ram in a thicket, caught by its horns. So he went and took the ram and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. (From Genesis 22)

 

[rogerg]

The question that is begging to be asked is this: How could these peoples' births that are talked about have happened in the past -- in God's Eternal Holy Dwelling Place!? We all know that the new birth existentially occurs in this age; therefore, I can reach only one conclusion. And it's this: The Psalmist can only be alluding to God's eternal decree regarding his chosen people, since God elected his chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world, which means in God's eyes they were as good as born in God's eternal home in Zion in eternity past from where He issued his decree. Also, the Psalmist is expressing this truth from the perspective of the saints' completed redemption in the Eternal New Order. This is the only inescapable conclusion I can reach.

Rufus, I completely agree with your assessment of those verses. However, I'll have to read through your post several more times to make sure I have its full drift and to think through its implications which I have yet to complete, but I believe I understand your primary point - that from God's timeless perspective, and based upon His unalterable will, everything pertaining to salvation for His elect that will occur throughout temporal reality has already completed within timeless reality -it is done. However, I believe that God chose to unwind His timeless actions and make His thoughts and judgements known and comprehensible to us within a cause-and-effect framework of time.
If I've gotten too far afield or missed the point, please don't hesitate to let me know.

[1Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[sawdust]

oh my goodness ... the Lord Jesus Christ doing the works of God ... such as healing the blind ... is fulfillment of prophecy ... whether you believe it or not.
.

If I may add to what you said here .. Jesus expected John the Baptist to understand His works as fulfillment of prophecy. (cmp Is.35:5-6)

John 11:2-5
2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?” 4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

 

[NightTwister]

Well actually that's been the entire premise of my posts so I have been discussing it. It's also good to understand you have not been and most likely why we're opposing one another in this view.

It's pointless discussing anything with you. Once you're proven wrong, you just redefine terms rather than admit you were wrong.

 

[cv5]

God is preserving unregenerate Jews at present who have not entered into the Church.

He is preserving them for what will take place after the Rapture, and the age of the Jews will be reinstated for the duration of the Tribulation.

You don't know this?

The Jews will surely be reinstated to fulfil their original mandate:
A priestly order by and through which King Jesus will preach His message of salvation to the gentile world.

For the entire duration of the millennium.

Kicking Israel to the curb permanently is in age old Calvinist trope.
But it is defiant of God's will and uniblical therefore they coddle it.

 

[Cameron143]

Then... you are not doing well in expressing what you meant by wrongly "exalting Moses."

Everyone else knew what I meant except @lrs68 .

 

[sawdust]

Why do you guys always exalt men over God?

Why do you never hear with understanding?

Regular people cease being regular once God finds someone whom His grace can be manifested in.

 

[Cameron143]

oh my goodness ... the Lord Jesus Christ doing the works of God ... such as healing the blind ... is fulfillment of prophecy ... whether you believe it or not.
.

Do you even read what I write. I didn't say it didn't fulfill prophecy. In fact, I said it was. But that isn't the extent of what Jesus' miracles were for. Hard to have a discussion with someone who either doesn't actually read what is written or who denies what is there.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If I may add to what you said here .. Jesus expected John the Baptist to understand His works as fulfillment of prophecy. (cmp Is.35:5-6)

John 11:2-5
2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?” 4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

right ... I pointed that out to Cameron143 here yesterday ... Jesus telling John's disciples about the healing of the blind (as well as other healing taking place) was information John's disciples would take back to John to confirm that Jesus was, in fact, "He that should come". The fact that Jesus mentioned the healing of the blind first is somewhat significant ... don't want to start another argument about that ... just something I noted ...
.

 

[Cameron143]

maybe you don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ spreads His love abroad through His body of believers, and if that is the case, so sad that you won't share His fruit with those who are so lost in this world ...
.

Again, I said God sheds His love abroad in people's hearts. What is wrong with you?
No sense even responding to you anymore. Grace and peace.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When they arrived at the place God had designated, Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood. He bound his son Isaac and placed him on the altar, atop the wood. Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. Just then the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.” Then Abraham looked up and saw behind him a ram in a thicket, caught by its horns. So he went and took the ram and offered it as a burnt offering in place of his son. (From Genesis 22)

This record occurs after the record wherein Abraham believed God and God imputed righteousness to Abraham (Genesis 15).
.

 

[Magenta]

If I may add to what you said here .. Jesus expected John the Baptist to understand His works as fulfillment of prophecy. (cmp Is.35:5-6)

John 11:2-5
2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?” 4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

And yet it seems he did not. Plus, Jesus stated that John the Baptist was "Elijah who is to come"
(Matthew 11:14). This was a prophecy from Malachi that someone would come in the spirit and
power of Elijah to prepare the way for the Messiah. What did John do when asked if he was? He denied it.

 

[Cameron143]

Why do you never hear with understanding?

Maybe you were describing yourself.

Once God...His grace...

Sounds like God should get the glory and not man.

 

[sawdust]

Maybe you were describing yourself.

Once God...His grace...

Sounds like God should get the glory and not man.

You still don't understand. God getting the glory is exactly what he meant.