Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

You tell me.....
And then tell me if you see ANY evidence of super-determinism here.
Rhetorical questions. You don't see either.

What you DO see is the "divine transaction".
Here and in every other similar case!

[Luk 5:17 KJV]
And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was [present] to heal them.

[Luk 5:18 KJV]
And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought [means] to bring him in, and to lay [him] before him.

[Luk 5:19 KJV]
And when they could not find by what [way] they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with [his] couch into the midst before Jesus.

[Luk 5:20 KJV]
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.(!)

The question is are you sharing your faith or his faith

My rhetoric would still be thy is often referred to his, but not always.

But your rhetoric seems solely based in one direction.

 

[HeIsHere]

With the utmost sincerity I can say that I do feel a great deal of pity for you and the others of your genre. It's a tragedy to watch all of you crash and burn at every apex.

But.....you and you alone are to blame for being stubbornly unteachable. All of you had the benefit of some top notch mentors ready and eager to assist.....but to no avail. The good faith and hard work were squandered.

Maybe relief will come for you all at some point in the future God only knows. Right now prospects look dim.

Absolutely, when it comes right down to it, it is a squandered opportunity to rethink, turn away from a false system and towards the truth, the true plan set out by God.

Repentance.

 

[cv5]

Absolutely, when it comes right down to it is a squandered opportunity to rethink, turn away from a false system and towards the truth, the true plan set out by God.

Repentance.

Somebody inform them that this is not a children's "game".

Luk 7:32
“They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling to one another, saying:
‘We played the flute for you,
And you did not dance;
We mourned to you,
And you did not weep.'

 

[lrs68]

Absolutely,

On what bases could they could still seek him, just for anything,


Maybe what you thinking is that people are suggesting mankind was completely unable to use any intelligence, which would be moving the goal posts

I am merely saying that if God tells man to seek Him but man doesn't have the ability then that makes God a liar. But we know God never lies. It's impossible for God to lie. So that means if God tells man he can do something then he can do it.

In this discussion we have 2 sides. 1 claims God said man can seek Him and 1 says man cannot seek God. I believe we should always choose to believe what God Himself directly says even if other writers read as though their written words contradict that.

 

[BillyBob]

Man of the flesh is NOT free to choose.

We finally agree on something!

 

[rogerg]

I am merely saying that if God tells man to seek Him but man doesn't have the ability then that makes God a liar. But we know God never lies. It's impossible for God to lie. So that means if God tells man he can do something then he can do it.

Which verses?

 

[Jordon]

@cv5 what does this mean ...


Matthew 17:17 KJV

Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?

 

[Jordon]

I am merely saying that if God tells man to seek Him but man doesn't have the ability then that makes God a liar. But we know God never lies. It's impossible for God to lie. So that means if God tells man he can do something then he can do it.

In this discussion we have 2 sides. 1 claims God said man can seek Him and 1 says man cannot seek God. I believe we should always choose to believe what God Himself directly says even if other writers read as though their written words contradict that.

I understand your stance, but where talking about the ability to obey which would come after seeking

 

[BillyBob]

The determinists love to make everyone out to be a total loser. Makes them feel powerful and boosts their self-esteem. Evidently this is part of the "payoff" for "playing the game".

Jesus....was habitually doing the contrary, he was making winners out of losers. Surely He wasn't interested in "feeling powerful" or boosting His self-esteem. And He DEFINITELY wasn't playing games.

Here is another example of a winner. Jesus commends her (much like the woman of Luke 7) for her demonstration of determination, courage, perception, reverence and resolve. He loves that kind of person.

Mat 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Thank you.
You have again presented another story proving that the Holy Spirit does indeed work in mysterious ways. That He can even change the heart of a woman of Canaan, and draw her to Christ.
Praise the Lord, for He is good......

 

[lrs68]

I understand your stance, but where talking about the ability to obey which would come after seeking

Oh, I have misunderstood then. So you believe man can seek God but once man finds God he doesn't always obey? Yeah, not a single Christian ever can say they obeyed God 100% 24\7\365 for their entire Christian life.

 

[lrs68]

Which verses?

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

 

[Blain]

Well God created us in his likeness, which could mean he created us how he wanted to, with a nature that should be obedient to him, would you say that's a possibility that is one of the laws of our nature

I would say no that is not a law of nature if it was we would instinctively obey him without question but we battle against this flesh and at times disobey him. Think of gravity for instance no matter what it works the same this is a law of nature but we do not act the same we have the ability to disobey him if it was a law of nature then yeah like gravity we would obey his ordained order every time without fail

 

[Blain]

That's a Deist view.

And? how is it wrong?

 

[NightTwister]

And? how is it wrong?

It contradicts scripture that teaches us God is intimately involved with all of His creation.

 

[rogerg]

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

In post 13544 you said that God tells "man" to seek Him:

"I am merely saying that if God tells man to seek Him"

However, in that verse, God does not tell "man" to seek Him; He tells "ye" to seek Him. Who do you think the "ye" is?
Whoever you determine that to be, they, and they alone " will" (must) find Him and that they will find Him is NOT optional nor left to chance.

[Jer 29:13-14 KJV]
13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

 

[Rufus]

You're of course absolutely correct about the Joshua context. A command to make a choice is also included in Joshua24:15 and they made it per Joshua24:21-22.

It's interesting how we've been asking this change from a devout determinist. But their system is a self-insulating and self-validating loop:

• We don't change unless God changes us.
• God isn't changing me.
• I don't need to change.

Allow to revise the above for you:

We cannot change our essence because it's not in our power to do so.
Yet, we are commanded to change
Therefore, I must cry out to the only One who has the power to change me

Same for humility:

• God gives grace to the humble
• God gives me grace.
• I'm humble.[ /QUOTE]

The fatal flaw with the above syllogism is that it's limited to one individual. But this doesn't help the FWers theology that God universally gives his grace to the entire world (a whole bunch of individuals)! So, let's modify the above to include all mankind in the distributive sense.

God gives grace to the humble
God gives grace to the world
The God-hating, rebellious, hostile world is, therefore, humble.

And I suppose this makes sense to you, right?

 

[Blain]

It contradicts scripture that teaches us God is intimately involved with all of His creation.

Yes he is but can you explain how my view is wrong? I mean doesn't God have ordained mechanisms in how things operate? does he not have a calulated plan and way of doing things?

 

[Magenta]

I understand your stance, but where talking about the ability to obey which would come after seeking

Scripture says the mind of the flesh (unregenerated man) is incapable of obeying.

Just another Biblical truth for FWers to contradict and outright deny in favor of their idolatry.

 

[Genez]

Does that make it ok for you to do the same .

Are you sure his intension was to humiliate ?

Or could there be another intension.

I do hope so because your first intension speaks of an out of character approach by Jesus

I'm not sure I've seen any scripture where Jesus likes to humiliate people

Are you listening to satan again ?

Your British cultural attitude is why Muslims have taken over London.
It is not good. Stop using what controls you over me.
I know doctrine. You do not.

Here is sweet sensitive Jesus speaking with one of his disciples.
Keep in mind...

Peter was living in your attitude.
Which many might have seen today as being noble and socially acceptable.

From that time, Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, ​

and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, ​

and be raised the third day.​

​

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, ​

“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”​

(Wasn't Peter being so thoughtful and kind?)​

​

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! ​

You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, ​

but the things of men.” Mat 16:21-23​

​

​

Sorry...

You have got a lot to learn if you are to ever learn and know the Mind of Christ.
There is a time for war. And, there is a time for peace.

His ways are not your ways. Isaiah 55:8​

.

 

[Jordon]

Your British cultural attitude is why Muslims have taken over London.
It is not good. Stop using what controls you over me.
I know doctrine. You do not.

Here is sweet sensitive Jesus speaking with one of his disciples.
Keep in mind...

Peter was living in your attitude.
Which many might have seen today as being noble and socially acceptable.

From that time, Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, ​

and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, ​

and be raised the third day.​

​

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, ​

“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”​

(Wasn't Peter being so thoughtful and kind?)​

​

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! ​

You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, ​

but the things of men.” Mat 16:21-23​

​

​

Sorry...

You have got a lot to learn if you are to ever learn and know the Mind of Christ.
There is a time for war. And, there is a time for peace.

His ways are not your ways. Isaiah 55:8​

.

are you sure your not offended ?