Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Agreed. At best 1Cor3:1-3 and onward.

Would you like some cake with your milk?

 

[cv5]

Nope
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: "

Like I said, come back when you can read and understand those verses correctly. Done.

LOL.

***he-hath-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-world***

aka......the PLAN. That be it sir.

 

[rogerg]

LOL.

***he-hath-chosen-us-in-him-before-the-foundation-of-the-world***

aka......the PLAN. That be it sir.

So, let me see if I have this straight: you are actually agreeing that God chose certain specific individuals from
before the foundation of the world to be "in him" and to be holy and without blame?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

your talking about your future.

Your nature my nature was judged in the garden because you where born with the sane nature as Adam.

There you go.

If your nature wasn't judged in the garden and way back when the son was there with him in the beginning. There would have been no plan to save you from the begining

But that would also mean your nature was different to anyone else if you your self was not born under any judgement.

Yep you may well have had your innocence when you born but you still had the sane nature that Adam and eve had.
There's no getting away from that one.
.
Oh and just to prove you still had your innocence, you where no doubt just like every other little baby who didn't get ashamed of being naked.

But all tho you had your innocence the judgment was still waiting for you.

Yep theres no getting away from God's judgment which was the natural man suffered a spiritual severance from God.

Well not completely..


You really shouldn't see see this judgment as personal judgement but more a begining for you personally.

There's a heart of stone and then there's a hardened heart and then theres even more hardened heart.

Well at least not for everyone.
.

Hey you know what you can dismiss to if you want....

But you know the little innocent baby excuse is pretty lame for a mature Christian.

Naw I’m talking about what the Bible says that’s why I keep quoting from it . some of you simply aren’t interested in that part

“But you know the little innocent baby excuse is pretty lame for a mature Christian.”

Yeah …but I’m not the one saying they are born condemned and seperate d from God by thier birth . Which is just a fallacy . We aren’t made wrong we choose wrong

 

[Cameron143]

So if God chose to die for all lost souls but only a small percentage of them become actual believers and followers of Christ and it was God's plan for this you would call that a Success by God?

I don't believe God died for every single person who will ever live.

 

[NightTwister]

So if God chose to die for all lost souls but only a small percentage of them become actual believers and followers of Christ and it was God's plan for this you would call that a Success by God?

"I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore." - Gen 22:17 ESV.
That doesn't sound like "a small percentage." Also, it's free-willers who believe man can thwart God's plan.

 

[HeIsHere]

 

[Magenta]

I don't believe God died for every single person who will ever live.

Jesus' propitiatory sacrifice was sufficient for all but is efficacious only unto those who believe in His shed righteous blood.

 

[Rufus]

It's merely saying that this world is under the control of Satan BUT we are God's. It's no different than being a sojourner of this world because we're only passing through it to our eternal destination.

What!? Explain how "this world" in 1Jn 5:19 doesn't include born again believers, since phrases or terms like "whole world" or "world", according to you FWers, always means all mankind w/o exception! You are aren't even aware of what you just did above! The "but" in your sentence is making a contrast between the "world...under the control of Satan" and believers! You just made a distinction between two very different groups of people, thereby unwittingly excluding believers from the very world Satan controls! Your post therefore is self-defeating because in vain you're trying to exclude the very group that must be included in the phrase "whole world" if this phrase is always used in the distributive sense. IOW, you just made an exception for believers when there can be none! Since when are believers, in FWT, not an integral part of the "whole world" with unbelievers?

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus' propitiatory sacrifice was sufficient for all but is efficacious only unto those who believe in His shed righteous blood.

That's 1 view.

 

[Magenta]

What!? Explain how "this world" in 1Jn 5:19 doesn't include born again believers, since phrases or terms like "whole world" or "world", according to you FWers, always means all mankind w/o exception! You are aren't even aware of what you just did above! The "but" in your sentence is making a contrast between the "world...under the control of Satan" and believers! You just made a distinction between two very different groups of people, thereby unwittingly excluding believers from the very world Satan controls! Your post therefore is self-defeating because in vain you're trying to exclude the very group that must be included in the phrase "whole world" if this phrase is always used in the distributive sense. IOW, you just made an exception for believers when there can be none! Since when are believers, in FWT, not an integral part of the "whole world" with nbelievers?

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

FWers are in such deep denial about their error, they cannot help but fall all over themselves trying to prop
up their idol of man's so-called free will despite the plethora of verses that speak against any such innate
freedom man is in possession of. Man does not even seek after God without God moving first. But FWers here
say man needs nothing and is born with everything he requires in order to come to belief. It is a long-held
observation that their contradictions and denials of what is explicitly articulated cause them much confusion.

 

[Magenta]

That's 1 view.

Is it incorrect?

 

[Cameron143]

Is it incorrect?

I don't believe it is, but many do.

 

[Magenta]

I don't believe it is, but many do.

Ah, yes, the many going through the wide gate.

Matthew 7 v 13 plus Romans 8 v 13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live

 

[lrs68]

I don't believe God died for every single person who will ever live.

You just choose to ignore the first rule definition of kosmos and apply a word that literally means everyone and everything for here and there.

 

[Rufus]

went over 1 John 5:19 yesterday with Rufus ...

Rufus said:
So...you're saying that the "whole world" does not include those "born again"?

reneweddaybyday said:
rolleyes ... no that's what you say and you are projecting your belief onto me.

I am saying that the born again one lives in the world ... the whole world lies in wickedness ... and if you do not believe you live in this world, you are delusional.


Rufus said:
I mean the text does say that the evil one CANNOT touch him because God keeps his own safe!

reneweddaybyday said:
the wicked one cannot affect us directly ... the wicked one can only affect us indirectly (i.e. through others).

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESV


Rufus said:
Conversely, the "whole world" sins continually and God does not protect the world from the power of the devil.

reneweddaybyday said:
I'm not sure about this ... there is a time coming when demons who are currently imprisoned will be let loose ... so I do not agree with your statement that God "does not protect the world from the power of the devil". God also tells us there are some nasty fellows who are kept in chains.


Rufus said:
Yet, the sons of God are not and cannot be controlled by the devil because of God's protection.

reneweddaybyday said:
yes ... satan can only influence, and that, indirectly ... however, there is a verse which tells the believer not to give place to the devil and that the believer is not to grieve the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Rufus said:
So...are born again believers under the power and control of the devil as the "whole world" is, or are they protected by the power of God?

reneweddaybyday said:
not "or", Rufus ... try "and" ...

born again believers live in the world which is controlled by satan and they are protected by the power of God ...

but that is not to say that bad things can't happen to believers. Look at what happened on 9/11 ... there were believers in the World Trade Center building who died ... and I have heard that some believers who should have been in the building were not in the building (I recall someone saying they were running late). But that event does not mean God is not God or that God is not working in the world.
.

So...you wrote a tome to prove that believers are also right now under the control of Satan right along with the wicked of the world -- the very one whom Jesus came into this world to currently defeat for his people in this age. Another epic fail for Jesus! Another promise not kept!

Also, while believers "live in the world", believers are NOT OF this world, anymore than Jesus is! Jesus most definitely prayed for his two flocks of sheep who are IN this world in Jn 17, but he did not pray for those OF this world! Learn the difference already!

And again, you put yourself squarely in Satan's corner with your inane 9-11 example. You clearly are implying that God failed dismally to keep any of those who were Christians safe who died that day, even though this is what 1Jn 5:18 says God does! Apparently the thought never entered your mind that by "safe" John ultimately meant it in the spiritual sense, not merely physically! After all, everyone physically dies from one thing or another.

Smooth move, Mr. Ex Lax....

 

[lrs68]

"I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore." - Gen 22:17 ESV.
That doesn't sound like "a small percentage." Also, it's free-willers who believe man can thwart God's plan.

If it requires Faith to move a mountain and God has given you the ability to move the mountain in front of you but it doesn't move then who is responsible God or you with the ability to move the mountain?

 

[lrs68]

What!? Explain how "this world" in 1Jn 5:19 doesn't include born again believers, since phrases or terms like "whole world" or "world", according to you FWers, always means all mankind w/o exception! You are aren't even aware of what you just did above! The "but" in your sentence is making a contrast between the "world...under the control of Satan" and believers! You just made a distinction between two very different groups of people, thereby unwittingly excluding believers from the very world Satan controls! Your post therefore is self-defeating because in vain you're trying to exclude the very group that must be included in the phrase "whole world" if this phrase is always used in the distributive sense. IOW, you just made an exception for believers when there can be none! Since when are believers, in FWT, not an integral part of the "whole world" with unbelievers?

Tsk, tsk, tsk...

You completely ignore being a sojourner. Typical!

 

[Rufus]

So...you wrote a tome to prove that believers are also right now under the control of Satan right along with the wicked of the world -- the very one whom Jesus came into this world to currently defeat for his people in this age. Another epic fail for Jesus! Another promise not kept!

Also, while believers "live in the world", believers are NOT OF this world, anymore than Jesus or His Kingdom is! Jesus most definitely prayed for his two flocks of sheep who are IN this world in Jn 17, but he did not pray for those OF this world! Learn the difference already!

And again, you unwittingly put yourself squarely in Satan's corner with your inane 9-11 example. You clearly are implying that God failed dismally to keep any Christians safe who died that day in those attacks, even though this is what 1Jn 5:18 says God does! Apparently the thought never entered your mind that by "safe" John ultimately meant it in the spiritual sense, not merely physically! After all, everyone physically dies from one thing or another. I suppose next, you'll be telling us that God has failed epically to keep all the martyrs safe who have given their lives for Jesus

Smooth move, Mr. Ex Lax....

 

[Cameron143]

You just choose to ignore the first rule definition of kosmos and apply a word that literally means everyone and everything for here and there.

I didn't ignore that particular definition. I simply rejected it based on other things taught in scripture.