Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Wow, double election. He chooses the chosen.

He elected certain believers to be in Christ. Why He chose you and me to be in Christ and not the Garden, or the Ark or Israel, that's a mystery only known to God.

God does not elect people to salvation and then elect them again to be in Christ. There is no double election.

Nope. All election takes place in eternity -- you know...BEFORE the beginning of time. What part of the biblical passages I cited can't you understand?

 

[lrs68]

You realize if you maintain your definition of world as all humanity, then according to 1 John 5:19 all Christians are under the control of the evil one. Is this your claim? Are Christians under the control of the evil one?

It's merely saying that this world is under the control of Satan but we are God's. It's no different than being a sojourner of this world because we're only passing through it to our eternal destination.

 

[studier]

You started well. The first 2 points are correct. The natural man believes the the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness; hence He will not receive them. You begin err after that. You attribute not knowing to believing the things of God are foolishness. The verse attributes not knowing to the fact that the things of God are spiritually discerned. You draw a conclusion that scripture does not, likely to prop up your man-centered ideology.

So, I didn't redefine "can't" and you were wrong (again).

The problem per the verse is man's presuppositional human wisdom which the Greeks had down to a pat system. Kind of like your Reformed system. But then along comes God's Wisdom...

 

[Cameron143]

It's merely saying that this world is under the control of Satan but we are God's. It's no different than being a sojourner of this world because we're only passing through it to our eternal destination.

If world means all humanity, look at all the mistruth one must accept. It clearly doesn't mean that in 1 John and neither does it in John 3:16.

 

[cv5]

Well, that's the part where I agreed with @studier , so he'll be glad to know you believe he is wrong.

You attempted to edit the passage by reversing the order. Willfully.
This kind of editing is only the latest of several incidents......

 

[cv5]

Wow, double election. He chooses the chosen.

He elected certain believers to be in Christ. Why He chose you and me to be in Christ and not the Garden, or the Ark or Israel, that's a mystery only known to God.

God does not elect people to salvation and then elect them again to be in Christ. There is no double election.

Don't forget about @Cameron143 's "faith generator" pre-installed before you ever existed.

 

[Cameron143]

So, I didn't redefine "can't" and you were wrong (again).

The problem per the verse is man's presuppositional human wisdom which the Greeks had down to a pat system. Kind of like your Reformed system. But then along comes God's Wisdom...

You didn't here, you simply butchered the text. But you might want to have a chat with your cohorts who so. They have been making the case all day. I wonder why you didn't correct them.

 

[Cameron143]

You attempted to edit the passage by reversing the order. Willfully.
This kind of editing is only the latest of several incidents......

No I didn't. Your CDS making you delusional.

 

[studier]

Well, that's the part where I agreed with @studier , so he'll be glad to know you believe he is wrong.

@cv5 understands it, hence his flagging your misplaced hence.

Still agree with me?

 

[Cameron143]

@cv5 understands it, hence his flagging your misplaced hence.

Still agree with me?

Your first 2 points. And he said I took it out of order. That's false. I took your points in order.

 

[studier]

You didn't here, you simply butchered the text. But you might want to have a chat with your cohorts who so. They have been making the case all day. I wonder why you didn't correct them.

Butchering the Text is what you call anything that disagrees with your system. I understand the words, their range of meanings, and think the flow is quite clear. And I have beyond reasonable doubt that you can actually argue the Text beyond making blanket unsupported allegations.

It looks to me like you may well not have understood what I said about clauses 1&2.

 

[studier]

Your first 2 points. And he said I took it out of order. That's false. I took your points in order.

show me again where your "hence" belongs.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If world means all humanity, look at all the mistruth one must accept. It clearly doesn't mean that in 1 John and neither does it in John 3:16.

went over 1 John 5:19 yesterday with Rufus ...

Rufus said:
So...you're saying that the "whole world" does not include those "born again"?

reneweddaybyday said:
rolleyes ... no that's what you say and you are projecting your belief onto me.

I am saying that the born again one lives in the world ... the whole world lies in wickedness ... and if you do not believe you live in this world, you are delusional.


Rufus said:
I mean the text does say that the evil one CANNOT touch him because God keeps his own safe!

reneweddaybyday said:
the wicked one cannot affect us directly ... the wicked one can only affect us indirectly (i.e. through others).

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESV


Rufus said:
Conversely, the "whole world" sins continually and God does not protect the world from the power of the devil.

reneweddaybyday said:
I'm not sure about this ... there is a time coming when demons who are currently imprisoned will be let loose ... so I do not agree with your statement that God "does not protect the world from the power of the devil". God also tells us there are some nasty fellows who are kept in chains.


Rufus said:
Yet, the sons of God are not and cannot be controlled by the devil because of God's protection.

reneweddaybyday said:
yes ... satan can only influence, and that, indirectly ... however, there is a verse which tells the believer not to give place to the devil and that the believer is not to grieve the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Rufus said:
So...are born again believers under the power and control of the devil as the "whole world" is, or are they protected by the power of God?

reneweddaybyday said:
not "or", Rufus ... try "and" ...

born again believers live in the world which is controlled by satan and they are protected by the power of God ...

but that is not to say that bad things can't happen to believers. Look at what happened on 9/11 ... there were believers in the World Trade Center building who died ... and I have heard that some believers who should have been in the building were not in the building (I recall someone saying they were running late). But that event does not mean God is not God or that God is not working in the world.
.

 

[sawdust]

Nope. All election takes place in eternity -- you know...BEFORE the beginning of time. What part of the biblical passages I cited can't you understand?

You didn't here what I said. I said nothing about timing. I agree God elected believers before time began. I disagree He elected us to elect us. There is no double election. Concentrate please.

 

[Cameron143]

Butchering the Text is what you call anything that disagrees with your system. I understand the words, their range of meanings, and think the flow is quite clear. And I have beyond reasonable doubt that you can actually argue the Text beyond making blanket unsupported allegations.

It looks to me like you may well not have understood what I said about clauses 1&2.

I could certainly go through the points you made and evaluate where you were right and wrong from the text, and where you erred.

 

[Cameron143]

show me again where your "hence" belongs.

You have been hanging out with the CDS crowd so long you are going equally looney. You used to be able to discuss concepts and ideas so a discussion with you was profitable. Guess that's gone now.

 

[rogerg]

Wrong. Your order/priority of events is just plain wrong. Which then you perpetuate and then prop up as a false premise, then create a determinist mythic soteriology from it. This myth must be eliminated.

In fact the natural man (first of all) RECEIVETH NOT the Spirit, THERFORE (as a consequence) "neither can he know"/understand GODS WISDOM (the wisdom of the Cross!).

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know (them), because they are spiritually discerned.

What you fail to understand is that the Spirit is also in control of and is He who grants the "receiveth"(ing) to someone. The unsaved choose not to "receiveth" because they are not indwelled with the Spirit who otherwise would move them to do so and who then does so; they are not indwelled with the Spirit because they haven't become born again; they haven't become born-again because they weren't saved; they haven't become saved because they were not of the elect. But you act as though to receive stands alone apart from God and is at the power of man - as though God only took it halfway: it is all by God, nothing by man.
So, next time you decide to throw the "r" word around, before you do, remember God is in charge of it too.

 

[Cameron143]

went over 1 John 5:19 yesterday with Rufus ...

Rufus said:
So...you're saying that the "whole world" does not include those "born again"?

reneweddaybyday said:
rolleyes ... no that's what you say and you are projecting your belief onto me.

I am saying that the born again one lives in the world ... the whole world lies in wickedness ... and if you do not believe you live in this world, you are delusional.


Rufus said:
I mean the text does say that the evil one CANNOT touch him because God keeps his own safe!

reneweddaybyday said:
the wicked one cannot affect us directly ... the wicked one can only affect us indirectly (i.e. through others).

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESV


Rufus said:
Conversely, the "whole world" sins continually and God does not protect the world from the power of the devil.

reneweddaybyday said:
I'm not sure about this ... there is a time coming when demons who are currently imprisoned will be let loose ... so I do not agree with your statement that God "does not protect the world from the power of the devil". God also tells us there are some nasty fellows who are kept in chains.


Rufus said:
Yet, the sons of God are not and cannot be controlled by the devil because of God's protection.

reneweddaybyday said:
yes ... satan can only influence, and that, indirectly ... however, there is a verse which tells the believer not to give place to the devil and that the believer is not to grieve the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Rufus said:
So...are born again believers under the power and control of the devil as the "whole world" is, or are they protected by the power of God?

reneweddaybyday said:
not "or", Rufus ... try "and" ...

born again believers live in the world which is controlled by satan and they are protected by the power of God ...

but that is not to say that bad things can't happen to believers. Look at what happened on 9/11 ... there were believers in the World Trade Center building who died ... and I have heard that some believers who should have been in the building were not in the building (I recall someone saying they were running late). But that event does not mean God is not God or that God is not working in the world.
.

You didn't preserve the entirety of the verse. The verse says the world lies in the wicked one. Do Christians lie in the evil one? In fact not. How do we know? The first part of the verse tells us...we are of God.

 

[cv5]

Well, that's the part where I agreed with @studier , so he'll be glad to know you believe he is wrong.

Wrong.
Your transgression was as I said:
You brazenly, shamelessly, and intentionally inverted the sequence that @studier rightly provided.

This kind of malpractice has no place on this message board.

 

[cv5]

What you fail to understand is that the Spirit is also in control of and is He who grants the "receiveth"(ing) to someone. The unsaved choose not to "receiveth" because they are not indwelled with the Spirit who otherwise would move them to do so and who then does so; they are not indwelled with the Spirit because they haven't become born again; they haven't become born-again because they weren't saved; they haven't become saved because they were not of the elect. But you act as though to receive stands alone apart from God and is at the power of man - as though God only took it halfway: it is all by God, nothing by man.
So, next time you decide to throw the "r" word around, before you do, remember God is in charge of it too.

All of that post little more than super-determinist myth and fantasy.
Repeating it ad infinitum is all that remains of your argument.