Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

So God reveals that only God is good when it comes to the natural man.

no one disputes that "only God is good" ... that does not negate the truth that God said mankind has knowledge of good.

The natural man needs help to respond to God.

which is why God reaches out to mankind first ... God has not gone so far as to remove all potential on the part of mankind to respond to Him when He reaches out.

That's why God built Noah a boat before wiping the earth clean of many evil natural men.

God told Noah to build the ark according to His instruction ...

Genesis 6:14-16 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

... Noah built the ark according to God's instruction ...

Genesis 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Christianity is all about good and evil. It's something we have to talk about. It's unfortunate we also have to include depraved but that's just how it is.

you claim "it's unfortunate we also have to include the depraved " ... however, for some it appears to be "it's unfortunate we also have to include the good " as some never mention or acknowledge the fact that God said mankind can know good.
.

 

[Jordon]

“And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭18:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:2-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:10‬ ‭


We sin and fall under judgement we aren’t born there we earn it by choosing the evil over the good sometimes. . When we know what’s right and don’t do it we’ve sinned and commiting our own sins is why we ere condemned. And need a savior. Not because were created wrong because we choose wrong as we grow up

your talking about your future.

Your nature my nature was judged in the garden because you where born with the sane nature as Adam.

There you go.

If your nature wasn't judged in the garden and way back when the son was there with him in the beginning. There would have been no plan to save you from the begining

But that would also mean your nature was different to anyone else if you your self was not born under any judgement.

Yep you may well have had your innocence when you born but you still had the sane nature that Adam and eve had.
There's no getting away from that one.
.
Oh and just to prove you still had your innocence, you where no doubt just like every other little baby who didn't get ashamed of being naked.

But all tho you had your innocence the judgment was still waiting for you.

Yep theres no getting away from God's judgment which was the natural man suffered a spiritual severance from God.

Well not completely..


You really shouldn't see see this judgment as personal judgement but more a begining for you personally.

There's a heart of stone and then there's a hardened heart and then theres even more hardened heart.

Well at least not for everyone.
.

Hey you know what you can dismiss to if you want....

But you know the little innocent baby excuse is pretty lame for a mature Christian.

 

[Jordon]

no one disputes that "only God is good" ... that does not negate the truth that God said mankind has knowledge of good.





which is why God reaches out to mankind first ... God has not gone so far as to remove all potential on the part of mankind to respond to Him when He reaches out.





God told Noah to build the ark according to His instruction ...

Genesis 6:14-16 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

... Noah built the ark according to God's instruction ...

Genesis 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.





you claim "it's unfortunate we also have to include the depraved " ... however, for some it appears to be "it's unfortunate we also have to include the good " as some never mention or acknowledge the fact that God said mankind can know good.
.

only God is good when it comes to the natural man. Because only God can make the natural man do Good.

There. You see the natural man can do good.

Do you feel better now I hope so.

Because this is clear proof the natural man can do good, and really if anyone says other wise, well I think it would be a pleasure to say other wise.

If the person kept on refusing abd veto that, well in this case for me personally it would be once bitten twice shy.

If however they where a baby I could be patient, but if however there a well studied Christian refusing to now put this argument to bed after having this knowledge, I would probably just move on.

Anyhow I hope you have a lovely day.

 

[studier]

you asked who and you have answered your own question ... "those who are perishing"

you asked why and I told you why ... to the Jews who are perishing it is because the preaching of the cross is a stumbling block (1 Cor 1:22) ... to the Greeks who are perishing it is foolishness because they seek man's wisdom (the wisdom of words of 1 Cor 1:17; and the wisdom of the wise of 1 Cor 1:19).

Those who continue to stumble at the stumblingblock will perish ... those who continue to hold to the wisdom of man will perish.

That is the answer to "why".





oh c'mon Cameron143 ... yes there is Scripture not included in 1 Cor 2:14 ...

you know there are folks who are not born again who believe the spiritual truth that there is a God Who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

you know there are folks who are not born again who believe the spiritual truth thou shalt not murder.

you know there are folks who are not born again who believe the spiritual truth children should obey their parents.

and there are other verses in Scripture which are believed by natural man ... all spiritual truth ... all God breathed ... yet believed by natural man.

you continue to fold the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe into 1 Cor 2:14 ... which is speaking of spiritual truths which go beyond the scope of the gospel.

1 Cor 1:18-25 does not say those who are perishing can't believe the gospel ... 1 Cor 1:18-25 says those who are perishing won't believe the gospel ... because they hold the wisdom of men above the foolishness of God when God tells us the foolishness of God is wiser than men.





yes, the verse is speaking of more in-depth spiritual matters which go beyond the gospel of Christ ... the gospel is the first step to the milk of the Word.





1 Cor 2:14 is speaking of spiritual matters that go beyond what the natural man (as well as the newborn believer in Christ) is able to comprehend. That is why Paul spoke of these matters to those who were more mature.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought

The words "are perfect" are translated from the Greek word téleios which means mature, of full age. Paul specifically states that he and other more mature spoke wisdom amongst themselves. These discussions were not held in the regular church congregation.

1 Cor 2:6-16 specifically relates to spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of the gospel which was taught in the general congregation of the church:

vs 6 – the wisdom was discussed among the mature believers ... the gospel was taught in the general congregation (vss 1-2).

vs 7 – the wisdom of God in a mystery ... this wisdom was kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25); and in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men (Eph 3:5); and from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (Eph 3:9); and which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (Col 1:26). Please understand, the gospel was never hid by God ... the gospel is proclaimed throughout all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

vs 8 – if the devil and his minions had known the mystery, the hidden wisdom, they never would have crucified the Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 9 – the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 10 – the deep things of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel). The gospel is considered milk upon which the new believer (as well as all believers) is to desire so that he/she may grow thereby... the mystery, the hidden wisdom is (scripturally) considered to be strong meat.

vs 11 – the things of God which no man knoweth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 12 – the things that are freely given to us of God go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 13 – things which the Holy Ghost teacheth go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

vs 14 – the things of the Spirit of God and specifically the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom go beyond the scope of Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).
.

More and repeated Scriptural detail to be once again rejected in favor of maintaining an erroneous tradition not unlike other human wisdom preferred over Truth. Not rejected by all though. Thanks again!

 

[cv5]

Having the knowledge of Good is one thing, and if all you had was the knowledge of Good, you would think you could do no wrong.

The thing is Adam and eve did not have the knowledge of evil before they disobeyed God they disobeyed out of there own nature.

The same nature that exist in us.

Some passages say there sin was imputed to us, well in a way it was, but the underlying fact was it was there nature that is imputed in us.

The judgement made in God's sovereign plan before the foundations of the world was that we should be born under judgment which was plain to see in the garden

That would be a difficult concept to accept for some, since they just want to tie that belief to Calvinists

But not only did Adam and eve Disobey by there own nature.

They now had the knowledge of all evil to go with it.

Is there any chance God placed a stone in there hearts for any other reason than believing that stone was just a curse.

Now it couldn't have been a physical stone couldn't it.

It could have been a stone that blocks the entrance to life but also offers some hedge of protection.

I mean a physical stone in your heart would kill you.

So maybe just maybe that stone has more than one purpose.

But here's where those thoughts would and could just pass a person by.

Maybe not,
there may even be a thought about well God was known to put a flaming sword protecting the way to life.

Well he certainly carried on to protect Adam and eve


So just maybe just maybe his sovereign plan is not that bad after all when it comes to heart of stone

The judgement made in God's sovereign plan before the foundations of the world was that we should be born under judgment which was plain to see in the garden

False. God created them (and everything else).....very good.

Gen 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[cv5]

I was responding to 2 different posts. More deception. And when a verse is speaking about those who are perishing, it is referring to those who perishing.

And there is no scripture not included in the things of the Spirit referenced in 1 Corinthians 2:14. So the verse is not simply referring to the meat of the word, but includes the milk of the word and the gospel. In other words, even if you believe receiving the word is volitional, the natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God even if he received them.

Cameron143 said:
In other words, even if you believe receiving the word is volitional, the natural man cannot know the things of the Spirit of God even if he received them.

All of your faulty (and bizarre!) philosophical musings can be stated as categorically belonging to "enticing words of man's wisdom" aka "foolishness". Because they certainly to not align with valid Spiritual truth as revealed in the Bible. On the contrary they stand in direct conflict. As can be evidenced by your utterly nonsensical quote in green......the epitome of foolishness.

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[cv5]

The bottom line here this is a debate really is about man's own free will dating back donkeys it's an absolute stinker

And somehow or another it's now an argument called free will verses predestination.
And all because people hate a doctrine called tulip,

All this argument is doing, is promoting God's authority to be disrespected.

Jt really is.

What's left if we just chuck out verses like John 6.44 which also includes a full relationship with the father

The final choice is his, and whatever choices we have before that or freedom, the final choice is more important

And somehow or another it's now an argument called free will verses predestination.

This debate has been settled. In favor of the free-will contingent. That was easy.

God has planned before time that ***THESE THINGS, namely*** blamelessness, conformation to His image, justification, adoption, obtaining an inheritance and glory ***SHALL BE GIFTED/BEQUEATHED to/upon those*** who WILL (in their time) believe, those who WILL (in their time) CHOOSE to enter the covenant.

These "THINGS"
never "THESE PERSONS"

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5569193

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5569315

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5569461

 

[rogerg]

These "THINGS"
never "THESE PERSONS"

So a hayseed such as myself has exploded the 600 year old Reformer myth of predestination on some backwater message board?

Say it isn't so @rogerg @Cameron143 @Magenta

You have yet of offer a cogent rebuttal, nor do we expect any. For obvious reasons.

Here:

[Eph 1:1, 3-9, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[cv5]

Here:

[Eph 1:1, 3-9, 11 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (the FUTURE REALIZATION yet to be revealed!) according to the purpose of him (this INHERITANCE a part of the plan of God from eternity past!) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You do understand that this aligns with the free-will contingent position? Right?
Bear in mind that the term "predestined/predestinated" embodies together BOTH the concepts of past plan and future realization.
Past plan as far as God is concerned.
Future realization as far as we are concerned.

These "THINGS" are predestined for us.

 

[rogerg]

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated (the FUTURE REALIZATION yet to be revealed!) according to the purpose of him (this INHERITANCE a part of the plan of God from eternity past!) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You do understand that this aligns with the free-will contingent position? Right?
Bear in mind that the term "predestined/predestinated" embodies together BOTH the concepts of past plan and future realization.
Past plan as far as God is concerned.
Future realization as far as we are concerned.

These "THINGS" are predestined for us.

Nope. The elect were predestinated.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: "

I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this as the verses are clear beyond dispute and they do not agree with you, period.
Come back when you are able to read and understand them correctly,

 

[lrs68]

While this has absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing, I have never said God was ever a failure at anything.

So if God chose to die for all lost souls but only a small percentage of them become actual believers and followers of Christ and it was God's plan for this you would call that a Success by God?

 

[Magenta]

Nope. The elect were predestinated.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: "

I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this as the verses are clear beyond dispute and they do not agree with you, period.
Come back when you are able to read and understand them correctly,

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[cv5]

Nope. The elect were predestinated.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: "

I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this as the verses are clear beyond dispute and they do not agree with you, period.
Come back when you are able to read and understand them correctly,

Better do your homework.....
This verse is concordant with everything I said earlier.
Which is that God's CHOSEN PLAN (from eternity past) was for us to be WITH HIM.
In other words, it is the PLAN that is of God's CHOOSING (eklegomai).....not the individuals.

The KJV translates Strong's G1586 in the following manner: choose (19x), choose out (1x), make choice (1x).

The KJV translates Strong's G1722 in the following manner: in (1,902x), by (163x), with (140x), among (117x), at (113x), on (62x), through (39x), miscellaneous (264x).

 

[Magenta]

only God is good when it comes to the natural man. Because only God can make the natural man do Good.

There. You see the natural man can do good.

Do you feel better now I hope so.

Only God is good. Jesus said so. FWers love to contradict and deny what Jesus said.

Jeremiah also said, Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Neither are you
able to do good— you who are accustomed to doing evil. FWers don't like to accept what the Bible
says, though, not even when it was Jesus Who said it. They have a problem contextualizing issues
around the natural man, and are quite slip-shod in their inability to acknowledge man's innate
inability, which goes quite some way to explaining how they so thoroughly botch any distinction
between the natural man and the spiritual man. Their lack of discernment helps prop up their idol.

Romans 7 v 14, John 8 v 34, Jeremiah 13 v 23, Romans 3 v 10 ~ We know that the law is spiritual; but
I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Neither are you able to do good - you who are accustomed to doing evil. There is no one righteous, not even one.

 

[studier]

1Cor2:14

I think it was @GWH who said he was using all the hostility in these threads to increase his patience, or something to this effect.

I had a professor in seminary who acknowledged to me that he used most commentaries to learn what not to think.

Though I'd like to just deal with Truth, it seems part of the process of getting to Truth is weeding out a lot of error. Some weeds just cause us to dig deeper. So, in a way, thanks to the weeds God allows that make us choose to dig.

One of the things I'm being caused to see in 1Cor2:14 is just how much brilliance and structure is in that single verse (in context of course). There is both a literary structure that cascades cause and effect from the central point of man thinking God's Wisdom is nonsense, and there is a logical structure that looks to be an ABAB Chiasm providing a dual parallelism to see the logic being elaborated. Once it's seen, it becomes clearer that Paul in just 4 clauses is dealing with the volitional fall of man, federal headship, Adam's pattern being carried forward in the old humanity, how Jesus volitionally reversed it and made the reversal available to all (new federal headship - a new humanity), and how Reformed theology reverses the pattern and destroys headship.

The nails on the Reformed coffin just keep coming.

1. Adam in the Garden

• Willful rejection > Inability to know
• Set the pattern for the old humanity

2. Jesus Christ

• Willful acceptance <> Ability to know
• Set the pattern for the new humanity

3. 1Cor2:14 (Paul uses the pattern of the old humanity in Adam)

• Willful rejection > Inability to know
• Then: God in Christ provides ability for all >Willful acceptance by some

4. Calvinism (reverses the pattern in 1Cor2:14)

• Inability to know > Willful rejection (Willful rejection < Inability to know)
• Then: God grants ability to a select few > Willful acceptance by those few

Weeds.

 

[Magenta]

Though I'd like to just deal with Truth

Gosh, I wish you would, but you get so busy boasting in yourself you turn to indiscreet dishonesty often.

 

[studier]

I'm not going to keep arguing with you about this

That would be nice.

 

[rogerg]

Better do your homework.....
This verse is concordant with everything I said earlier.
Which is that God's CHOSEN PLAN (from eternity past) was for us to be WITH HIM.
In other words, it is the PLAN that is of God's CHOOSING (eklegomai).....not the individuals.

The KJV translates Strong's G1586 in the following manner: choose (19x), choose out (1x), make choice (1x).

The KJV translates Strong's G1722 in the following manner: in (1,902x), by (163x), with (140x), among (117x), at (113x), on (62x), through (39x), miscellaneous (264x).

Nope
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: "

Like I said, come back when you can read and understand those verses correctly. Done.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

More and repeated Scriptural detail to be once again rejected in favor of maintaining an erroneous tradition not unlike other human wisdom preferred over Truth. Not rejected by all though. Thanks again!

also goes to show that it is not only natural man who considers the weightier spiritual matters referred to in 1 Cor 2:6-14 as foolishness.
.

 

[studier]

also goes to show that it is not only natural man who considers the weightier spiritual matters referred to in 1 Cor 2:6-14 as foolishness.
.

Agreed. At best 1Cor3:1-3 and onward.