Understanding God’s election

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

For example, the church will be raptured. True, this promise is given to the church in Philadelphia, but not to any of the other six churches.

Yes, that promise was given to the church at Philadelphia, but did you check to see if that church got physically whisked away when persecution came? No such thing occurred, otherwise that would have reported by historians. There's a letter written by the church of Smyrna that gives this account to another church, reporting that 12 of those martyred where from the church of Philadelphia along with Polycarp.

So what did Jesus meant by His promise is that He will keep them in their faith intact and they won't fall away from Him when persecution (the hour of trial) comes.

 

[DeanM]

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The bible wasnt complete at that time. Oral tradition was the "word" of the day. Wow.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Oh sorry. I thought you were the guy posting youtube all the time about how the end was next week. Must be someone else.

Lol! You know him too well!

 

[EddieM]

Yes so being saved does not indicate reward, nor does it indicate sanctification, simply justification. But in order to be a vessel unto honor you must be sanctified.

You can not be Sanctified until you are first Justified.

Many claim that all Christians get raptured before the tribulation even though it is very clear in Revelation there are tribulation saints.

This is a very poor argument. Saints in the Trib will be 1) Tribulation saints (those who are saved during the 7-year Trib after the Rapture per Rev 3.10), and 2) Jewish saints. (Neither of these saints are members of the Bride of Christ; they will fall into other categories). Like angels, God places them into many categories.

However, all Christiansw would mean all who are justified. The number who are are sanctified are signficicantly less. A small subset of that number.

Your theology is not making any sense here.

1 thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. af

2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

nonsense. the bible is the best source of "hearing" the word.

No, that's not what he's talking about. A person needs the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. How can a person become a Christian when He's already with the raptured Christians?

 

[DeanM]

No, that's not what he's talking about. A person needs the Holy Spirit in order to be saved. How can a person become a Christian when He's already with the raptured Christians?

The trib saints wont be saved at the rapture of the church. What he is saying? I put little faith in anything someone says here.

 

[EddieM]

The bible wasnt complete at that time. Oral tradition was the "word" of the day. Wow.

The written NT was completed in the first century. The process of creating a canon took longer.

 

[ZNP]

The bible wasnt complete at that time. Oral tradition was the "word" of the day. Wow.

Why is it so hard to provide the Biblical basis for your doctrine?

 

[ZNP]

...

Sanctification and Justification are two completely different things. We were justified by Jesus Christ, He is our righteousness, it is all of Him and none of us. However, it is up to us to keep each of our vessels in sanctification. That means you are fully separate unto God.

 

[DeanM]

Why is it so hard to provide the Biblical basis for your doctrine?

Truth? I have no desire to do so. You would just say that isnt what it means. Feel free to tell others how you know best.

 

[DeanM]

The written NT was completed in the first century. The process of creating a canon took longer.

At the time Paul was writing his epistles there was no NT.

 

[ZNP]

Truth? I have no desire to do so. You would just say that isnt what it means. Feel free to tell others how you know best.

So don't complain when others say you are making the whole thing up.

 

[DeanM]

bye

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

The trib saints wont be saved at the rapture of the church. What he is saying? I put little faith in anything someone says here.

Pre-tribbers think the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The restrainer is supposedly moved out of the way for the antichrist to be revealed. Since the Holy Spirit is in all Christians, we will all get raptured to remove the Holy Spirit out of the way. So the Holy Spirit is with us instead of on earth saving the rest of the people during the great tribulation.

Well THAT's what pre-tribbers think. It is false teaching which gives false hope.

We will ALL be here when the antichrist is revealed. And it is us, who will face persecution and martyrdom (though not all will be killed).

 

[ZNP]

Pre-tribbers think the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The restrainer is supposedly moved out of the way for the antichrist to be revealed. Since the Holy Spirit is in all Christians, we will all get raptured to remove the Holy Spirit out of the way. So the Holy Spirit is with us instead of on earth saving the rest of the people during the great tribulation.

Well THAT's what pre-tribbers think. It is false teaching which gives false hope.

We will ALL be here when the antichrist is revealed. And it is us, who will face persecution and martyrdom (though not all will be killed).

and not what I said.

Yes, every Christian has the Holy spirit within them, but not every Christian is restraining evil. Only those who are one with the Spirit are doing that.

Paul's expression was very unique for a reason. If you are the hands and feet of The Spirit to restrain evil then you are part of the restrainer.

 

[DeanM]

Pre-tribbers think the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The restrainer is supposedly moved out of the way for the antichrist to be revealed. Since the Holy Spirit is in all Christians, we will all get raptured to remove the Holy Spirit out of the way. So the Holy Spirit is with us instead of on earth saving the rest of the people during the great tribulation.

Well THAT's what pre-tribbers think. It is false teaching which gives false hope.

We will ALL be here when the antichrist is revealed. And it is us, who will face persecution and martyrdom (though not all will be killed).

From what ive read/heard the Spirit doesnt leave with the church.

 

[DeanM]

The Holy Spirit is God, and God is omnipresent, meaning He is everywhere at once and cannot truly leave the earth.

 

[Genez]

The tribulation saints. According to the new Testament you don't get believers unless someone preaches to them.

Here is what the Tribulation saints must face....

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ​

and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase ​

of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, But he who endures to the end shall be saved. ​

​

Matthew 24:10-13​

​

Keep in mind that when Jesus spoke those words?
There was no Church as of yet.

The Church could not arrive until after the Cross, and at Pentecost.

In Matthew 24:10-13?

Jesus was teaching as a good rabbi should have taught Jewish disciples.
Teaching according to what was to be known by Jews at that time.
The Jews were awaiting the Messiah's reign over them on earth!
In contrast to them?
The Church are waiting to reign with Him!

That is why Jesus was asked by Jews, numerous times, when will he set up his earthly kingdom.

Matthew 24? About enduring to the end?
That spoke of the Tribulation period that Jews on earth will have to go through.

We are not called to endure to be saved (delivered).
Delivered into the 1000 year transformed New Earth.

grace and peace......

 

[EddieM]

At the time Paul was writing his epistles there was no NT.

Paul instructed the recipients of his NT letters that they be copied. And more copies to spread his epistles to as many churches as possible. The NT Pauline epistles were completed in 68 AD. There were copies and epistles that were verbally recited for a congregation; this was standard practice among 1st century rabbis for their disciples. But, people would copy the copies and could consult with an Apostle as to the accuracy of the manuscript. It was the multiplying of these manuscripts that preserved the Word.

 

[EddieM]

Sanctification and Justification are two completely different things. We were justified by Jesus Christ, He is our righteousness, it is all of Him and none of us. However, it is up to us to keep each of our vessels in sanctification. That means you are fully separate unto God.

Now you got it. I would disagree that "it is all of Him and none of us." We play a crucial role in the salvation of our souls. Each person is responsible to respond positively to the Gospel. I consider this to be a self-evident truth, recorded throughout the Bible.