Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

Well sir, you err and gravely so.

The text does NOT preclude the natural man being taught the Good NEWS!!

As I have stated many times >>>>> CONTEXT!

The comparison here is not natural man with the spiritual man ... the contrast is human wisdom and divine revelation.

This is what Paul is stating....those who rely on human wisdom instead of the spiritual truths brought by the inspired apostles will see the cross as foolish and perish as a result.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

Debate over!
This verse does not support inability .. it is out.

Next.

I love it when you assume into your arguments things never stated.

I never stated the natural man cannot be taught the gospel. He can learn it the same way he can learn other subjects.

I didn't contrast the natural man with the spiritual man. I dealt with what the scripture says about the natural man.

When the words...neither can he...are employed...inability is certainly in view. You can ignore the verse if you like and ignore the truth of scripture if you like, I will not.

 

[Cameron143]

Wrong. He DOES NOT RECIEVE the OFFER of the gifting of the Spirit whereby understanding is possible, this by an act of volition.
As a consequence of this initial/precursory willful rejection, THEN he cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

As I have posted many times, God's OFFER, if refused/not received, RESULTS in blindness/judgement/darkness.
This is a second order EFFECT, it is a "reactionary judgement" contingent upon the DECISION of the intended recipient.
God extends His hand with the OFFER, the intended beneficiary RECEIVETH NOT the gift (offered in good faith), God reacts accordingly with justified judgement.

And this phenomenon is reproduced and codified literally HUNDREDS of times in Scripture.
Yet you fail to see it hundreds of times? Uncanny and bizarre.

We're past volition. The phrase...neither can he...deals with ability. Deal with that.

 

[HeIsHere]

I love it when you assume into your arguments things never stated.

I never stated the natural man cannot be taught the gospel. He can learn it the same way he can learn other subjects.

I didn't contrast the natural man with the spiritual man. I dealt with what the scripture says about the natural man.

When the words...neither can he...are employed...inability is certainly in view. You can ignore the verse if you like and ignore the truth of scripture if you like, I will not.

No what is in view is the unwillingness to believe or be persuaded, that is completely different than inability.

 

[cv5]

Thank you!!!

This has been deal with so many times, on other threads as well, I know this is one of the tactics to circle back and try again. they have tenacity I will grant them that.

We are FREE of this determinist doom-loop vortex.
I urge everyone to do likewise.....

 

[Cameron143]

You know ironic is not a big enough word anymore, let us go with MEGA -ironic!!

Now read this thoughtfully, prayerfully, every night and you will soon forget all these false doctrines you have accepted into your mind.

John 3:16 is enough to settle this matter.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

God loves the world, not just part of it. The “world” never refers to the elect.

World, as has been shown many times, does not refer to the entirety of mankind. Rather, it refers to people out of every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue.

 

[rogerg]

Try and up your game will you? That NIV translation is fit for the rubbish heap. The text does not support that word order its an appallingly poor effort.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

G1209 - dechomai - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3756 - ou - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up
2. to take up, receive
   1. used of a place receiving one
   2. to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
      1. to receive hospitality
      2. to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
   3. of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
      1. to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
   4. to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
3. to receive, get
   1. to learn

Strong's Greek: 1209. δέχομαι (dechomai) -- To receive, accept, welcome

1209 déxomai – properly, to receive in a welcoming (receptive) way. 1209 (déxomai) is used of people welcoming God (His offers), like receiving and sharing in His salvation (1 Thes 2:13) and thoughts (Eph 6:17).

1209/dexomai ("warmly receptive, welcoming") means receive with "ready reception what is offered" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 7), i.e. "welcome with appropriate reception" (Thayer).

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]

They could not receive because they did not have the Spirit - as with all the unsaved. Having the Spirit is the prerequisite to spiritual discernment. Only those saved have the Spirit. Did you not understand the 'neither can he know them" part from the very verse that you, yourself, posted?

 

[cv5]

Wrong. The Spirit must first indwell someone for them to be able to accept the things of the Spirit. IOW, for anyone to gain spiritual discernment, they first must have become saved, by which, they are given the Spirit, otherwise, without the Sprit, they cannot be spiritual man but instead are natural man.

[1Co 2:14 NIV] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Dwell upon this if you WILL....

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]

 

[lrs68]

John 3:16 is enough to settle this matter.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

God loves the world, not just part of it. The “world” never refers to the elect.

The reason this is 100% absolute fact and truth is because of the writer of the Gospel of John. We know it's both the Holy Ghost and the Apostle\Disciple John. But it's the same WORDS being used that matters. Here's the example of what I am talking about.

Jesus said in John 3 that God so loved the [(WORLD)]

The same usage for [(WORLD)] Jesus used when He said the [(WORLD)] hated me first and will hate us for His sake.

So Jesus is talking about the [(WORLD)] that HATES Him. God loves and died for the [(WORLD)] that HATES Him.

So unless the Reformed are claiming to HATE GOD then the [(WORLD)] means ALL HUMANS not just the saved ones.

 

[cv5]

They could not receive because they did not have the Spirit - as with all the unsaved. Having the Spirit is the prerequisite to spiritual discernment. Only those saved have the Spirit. Did you not understand the 'neither can he know them" part from the very verse that you, yourself, posted?

Wrong.

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]

 

[HeIsHere]

The reason this is 100% absolute fact and truth is because of the writer of the Gospel of John. We know it's both the Holy Ghost and the Apostle\Disciple John. But it's the same WORDS being used that matters. Here's the example of what I am talking about.

Jesus said in John 3 that God so loved the [(WORLD)]

The same usage for [(WORLD)] Jesus used when He said the [(WORLD)] hated me first and will hate us for His sake.

So Jesus is talking about the [(WORLD)] that HATES Him. God loves and died for the [(WORLD)] that HATES Him.

So unless the Reformed are claiming to HATE GOD then the [(WORLD)] means ALL HUMANS not just the saved ones.

Agree.

Sadly they never deal with the end point and contradictions of their doctrine because it would be too destabilizing or they fashion themselves as being able to deal with the HARD truths of scripture unlike others.

 

[rogerg]

Dwell upon this if you WILL....

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]

Oh, my goodness! You've ignored the primary part of the verse you posted. You need to read and comprehend all of it, not just a part of it because only part of it makes it incomplete. What it says is clear: that it is not possible for natural man to understand because he doesn't have the Spirit. The Spirit is a prerequisite to spiritual discernment.

 

[lrs68]

Agree.

Sadly they never deal with the end point and contradictions of their doctrine because it would be too destabilizing or they fashion themselves as being able to deal with the HARD truths of scripture unlike others.

A liar can never revisit a lie because it would become a truth and prove them wrong.

 

[Cameron143]

No what is in view is the unwillingness to believe or be persuaded, that is completely different than inability.

The word can is about ability. The Spirit would have chosen a different word if He meant something else. He could have easily have said won't. . He didn't. Also, the construction of the sentence supports this. The natural man doesn't and can't.

 

[cv5]

They could not receive ***because*** they did not have the Spirit - as with all the unsaved. Having the Spirit is the prerequisite to spiritual discernment. Only those saved have the Spirit. Did you not understand the 'neither can he know them" part from the very verse that you, yourself, posted?

Wrong. Your order/priority of events is just plain wrong. Which then you perpetuate and then prop up as a false premise, then create a determinist mythic soteriology from it. This myth must be eliminated.

In fact the natural man (first of all) RECEIVETH NOT the Spirit, THERFORE (as a consequence) "neither can he know"/understand GODS WISDOM (the wisdom of the Cross!).

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know (them), because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[cv5]

Oh, my goodness! You've ignored the primary part of the verse you posted. You need to read and comprehend all of it, not just a part of it because only part of it makes it incomplete. What it says is clear: that it is not possible for natural man to understand because he doesn't have the Spirit. The Spirit is a prerequisite to spiritual discernment.

Wrong.

The natural man (first of all) REFUSES THE OFFER of the Spirit.
Therefore (as a secondary event consequence) he is "not able to understand" (judgment has resulted).

Berean Literal Bible
But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned.

Read your OT once in a while. Maybe you will be set free by reading of the hundreds of examples of this.

[Num 14:22 KJV]
Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;

[Num 14:23 KJV]
(GOD REACTS WITH JUDGEMENT) Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

 

[rogerg]

Wrong. Your order/priority of events is just plain wrong. Which then you perpetuate and then prop up as a false premise, then create a determinist mythic soteriology from it. This myth must be eliminated.

In fact the natural man (first of all) RECEIVETH NOT the Spirit, THERFORE (as a consequence) "neither can he know"/understand GODS WISDOM (the wisdom of the Cross!).

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know (them), because they are spiritually discerned.

You didn't understand the "neither can he know"? Do you understand that only the Holy Spirit can teach things spiritual? And that the Holy Spirit only indwells someone by their becoming saved? So, understanding is completely beyond the grasp of the unsaved. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh, my goodness! You've ignored the primary part of the verse you posted. You need to read and comprehend all of it, not just a part of it because only part of it makes it incomplete. What it says is clear: that it is not possible for natural man to understand because he doesn't have the Spirit. The Spirit is a prerequisite to spiritual discernment.

Freewill dictionary:
CAN'T...means can

 

[cv5]

They could not receive because they did not have the Spirit - as with all the unsaved. Having the Spirit is the prerequisite to spiritual discernment. Only those saved have the Spirit. Did you not understand the 'neither can he know them" part from the very verse that you, yourself, posted?

BTW, it is obvious that you determinists INTENTIONALLY conflate "cannot understand" with "cannot receive", then backfill to absurdity with bogus determinist dogma.

 

[rogerg]

Liberal dictionary:
CAN'T...means can

Yup, I'm seeing that. Amazing, huh?

 

[HeIsHere]

World, as has been shown many times, does not refer to the entirety of mankind. Rather, it refers to people out of every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue.

There are other writings of the time period where the word is used, that is how word meanings are also understood.

I will go with the lexicons on this..

The most well known lexicons (such as Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich, Thayer, Bullinger, Vine, etc.) are in agreement in saying that kosmos (world) as used in John 3:16 refers to "mankind, the human race."

This is the obvious sense of the word in this context.

J.C. Ryle wrote,

"It seems to be a violent straining of language to confine the word world to the elect...The world means the whole race of mankind...without any exception...I have long come to the conclusion that men may be more systematic in their statements than the Bible, and may be led into grave error by idolatrous veneration of a [theological] system."