Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
 
Clearly you disagree with reformed soteriology. I'm not sure what else you hold to.
I believe God does it all by coming to you and making Himself known and if this happens to take place while hearing the Gospel preached God will make you understand that without Him you are lost and there's nothing you are able to do on your own to solve this issue but to accept His Gift of Salvation. And it's at this exact moment when you are able to accept or to reject what God is offering. And if you submit by yielding yourself to God (accepting His Gift) He will Regenerate you and make Himself a place inside you [Temple].
 
Some here want to pretend the natural man is no biggie in Scripture
as if the whole Bible was not about God's need to transform him.


He already has everything he needs, they say.

But then out of the other side of their mouth?

I never said his heart was good enough.

Another clear-cut case of:

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yep the idealists who call us determinists are well determined to putting Putting God into a box, with remarks like it's a just simple matter of yes and no with God

says a lot for God's intelligence I must say.
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Honestly that was a true brain wave I have to say 😂
 
yep the idealists who call us determinists are well determined to putting Putting
God into a box, with remarks like it's a just simple matter of yes and no with God

says a lot for God's intelligence I must say.
.
Honestly that was a true brain wave I have to say 😂
People say a lot of stuff that is not Biblical. Some of it they act like it came straight from
the Bible and then getting them to admit it is not in the Bible is like pulling teeth.
Because they want to believe they do not add to or take away from what God's Word
actually says, when they actually do add to and take away from what is written.


But then they bellyache about what is actually written also. Strange brew...

 
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AI Overview

Yes, from a humanistic and some theological viewpoints, humans have free will to choose , but this ability is often seen as limited or subject to underlying desires or divine influence, rather than absolute freedom from all factors. In many religious contexts, particularly in Christianity, free will is believed to be a gift from God, enabling humans to make genuine choices, even to choose evil, though some perspectives argue that a sinful nature or a higher divine plan can influence these choices.

Theological Perspectives
  • Christianity:
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    Free will is a core concept, allowing for genuine love and choice, even if it includes the potential for evil. However, some Christian views also emphasize a "sinful nature" that prevents a person from choosing righteousness on their own, requiring divine grace to enable that choice.

  • Judaism:
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    The Torah presents life and death as choices, implying free will is necessary for people to make those decisions, such as choosing to serve God or not.

  • Islam:
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    The Quran demonstrates freedom of choice, indicating that individuals have the capacity to make choices that affect their lives.
Philosophical and Psychological Perspectives
  • Humanistic Psychology:
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    This approach assumes humans possess free will and personal agency, meaning they make choices that shape their lives and have consequences.

  • Limitations of Free Will:
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    Even where free will is affirmed, it's often understood to exist within certain limits. Just as one cannot choose to fly, a person may be unable to choose to make themselves righteous due to their inherent nature or circumstances, according to some views.
The Role of Choice in Goodness and Evil

The Complexity of Free Will
  • Divine Will vs. Human Choice:
    Some theological discussions explore the relationship between human free will and God's predestination or sovereign will, presenting a complex view where both coexist.

  • Voluntary Actions:
    Even if a person is compelled by internal factors (like desires), their actions can still be considered voluntary, making them responsible for those choices.
One of the revelations I experienced at university is that there is a distinction between the terms "continually" and "continuously," and I think this is key in understanding the good and evil in man. The search engine retrieves a plethora of verses utilizing one derivative of 'continue' in one form or another but very rarely had I found the term "continuously" employed. In those cases where it was, it had to do with the duties in temple worship, such as the directive to keep the fire continuously burning.

Continually is inserted in italics in Ecc 7:20 in some versions where the Berean Standard Bible has, "Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins." And Roms 3:23 offers a second witness with, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," adding, with v.24, "and (referring back to the subject 'all' that have sinned) are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

I can't help but notice the logical leap one must make to conclude that naturally man must be 'continuously' as opposed to 'continually' but it is impossible for the righteous man to even be 'continually' good.:unsure:
 
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People say a lot of stuff that is not Biblical. Some of it they act like it came straight from
the Bible and then getting them to admit it is not in the Bible is like pulling teeth.
Because they want to believe they do not add to or take away from what God's Word
actually says, when they actually do add to and take away from what is written.


But then they bellyache about what is actually written also. Strange brew...

I guess people can make that mistake, but you shouldn't be determining this lol.

This gift of discernment is not for self determined heartless tragic people.

What on earth was you thinking. 😂
 
One of the revelations I experienced at university is that there is a distinction between the terms "continually" and "continuously," and I think this is key in understanding the good and evil in man. The search engine retrieves a plethora of verses utilizing one derivative of 'continue' in one form or another but very rarely had I found the term "continuously" employed. In those cases where it was, it had to do with the duties in temple worship, such as the directive to keep the fire continuously burning.

Continually is inserted in italics in Ecc 7:20 in some versions where the Berean Standard Bible has, "Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins." And Roms 3:23 offers a second witness with, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," adding, with v.24, "and (referring back to the subject 'all' that have sinned) are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

I can't help but notice the logical leap one must make to conclude that naturally man must be 'continuously' as opposed to 'continually' but it is impossible for the righteous man to even be 'continually' good.:unsure:
and, if we back up to v.22, "a) And this righteousness comes by faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe...." and "b) There is no distinction." especially stands out whenever there is any distinction of its origin is asserted apart from 'by faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe (in Jesus Christ as 'faith in' is virtually synonymous with 'believing').
 
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I believe God does it all by coming to you and making Himself known and if this happens to take place while hearing the Gospel preached God will make you understand that without Him you are lost and there's nothing you are able to do on your own to solve this issue but to accept His Gift of Salvation. And it's at this exact moment when you are able to accept or to reject what God is offering. And if you submit by yielding yourself to God (accepting His Gift) He will Regenerate you and make Himself a place inside you [Temple].
That's not reformed soteriology. What other parts of reformed doctrine do you agree with?
 
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1 Timothy 6 v 3-5, and from 2 Corinthians 11 v 13 ~ If anyone teaches another doctrine and disagrees with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and with godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. Instead, he has an unhealthy interest in controversies and disputes about words, out of which come envy, strife, abusive talk, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind who are devoid of the truth. These men regard godliness as a means of gain. Such men are deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
 
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In other words it important to submit to will of the lord, and live by his will.

Gn GB sleeo well magenta
 
anything goes with idealism
the "anything goes" is on the part of the one who "postulated" ... "Why didn't Adam step into the gap between Eve and God, as Moses did between Israel and God, and offer to pay her sin debt by pleading with God to take his life on her behalf?" ... with absolutely no Scriptural support showing that what he "postulated" was something God had revealed to Adam ...
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Did they all get to go up the mountain to speak with God directly, nope.
They didn't want to "go up the mountain to speak with God directly" ...

Exodus 20:18-19 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
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They didn't want to "go up the mountain to speak with God directly" ...

Exodus 20:18-19 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
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Honestly I'm not sure they didn't want to are you completely sure ?

But you've missed some thing important the chapter before

Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”
24 The Lord replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.”
25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.


So only moses was allowed to up by the lords command


Then this happend

The lord gave the commandments

Then this happend

When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”
Out of fear the people obeyed,

what you call an outer expression of faith



Anything the people did in the old t for God, was not for salvation, it was either done to receive favour from God or to escape punishment, called a give and take faith. Because they where unable to have true inner faith but that got closer and closer as the day drew nearer to the lord coming, through generations of chastisement and Gods word being enforced by men of bravery. As that's the only way people would listen back then


As I've already stated and others, in fact something quite rare happend here, both me and Cameron posted the exact same comment at the same time, which was any faith people had was expresion of faith.

Apart from one recording in the whole of the old t where one expresion of faith was counted as righteousness. Just one


You know the point to this was out of all the people enslaved in Egypt God chose only one person.

The same could be said for all the people with the lord for 40 years only a few people where chosen and allowed to enter the Tabernacle.

But never the less they where chosen.

The reason they kept honour to that faith was so that they never got punished,

The lord our God had to strike fear in there heart for them to obey.

Because that was the only way.

But some did excell.and express it more than others.


God bless have a nice day mam.
 
One of the revelations I experienced at university is that there is a distinction between the terms "continually" and "continuously," and I think this is key in understanding the good and evil in man. The search engine retrieves a plethora of verses utilizing one derivative of 'continue' in one form or another but very rarely had I found the term "continuously" employed. In those cases where it was, it had to do with the duties in temple worship, such as the directive to keep the fire continuously burning.

Continually is inserted in italics in Ecc 7:20 in some versions where the Berean Standard Bible has, "Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins." And Roms 3:23 offers a second witness with, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," adding, with v.24, "and (referring back to the subject 'all' that have sinned) are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

I can't help but notice the logical leap one must make to conclude that naturally man must be 'continuously' as opposed to 'continually' but it is impossible for the righteous man to even be 'continually' good.:unsure:

That's an important post and verse. Thanks!

There is this thread through Scripture of a relative and experiential righteousness, of doing good, but of also doing sin. Solomon speaks of this.

There is also the thread of the perfect righteousness of our holy, just and good God in whom there is absolutely no sin and no darkness. This is the reference point Paul is dealing with in Rom3 to establish that sin is universal affecting Jews and Greeks.

Somewhere back in this thread I said that the issue in the Rom3 verses where Paul is saying no men seek, etc., is that it's referencing perfectly righteous, holy, good God looking down from Heaven and saying such things about imperfect men.

We have to be willing to take in the counsel of all of Scripture and make clear what is the basis of our statements. There are many perspectives and associated types of literature in our Text and we're working to see how they harmonize. It shouldn't be such a battle.

Good post, Mem. Thanks!
 
yep the idealists who call us determinists are well determined to putting Putting God into a box, with remarks like it's a just simple matter of yes and no with God

Idealist, no. FWer, no. Volitionalist, Responsibilist, maybe. Non-Determinists, certainly. Christian, absolutely.
 
Idealist, no. FWer, no. Volitionalist, Responsibilist, maybe. Non-Determinists, certainly. Christian, absolutely.
I'm glad for you really I am.

Don't do what many do tho and treat it like a label

But you know whatever the weather God is always there for you.

Have a nice day sir I can't be bothered with name reminders about name calling today.
 
God has planned before time that ***THESE THINGS, namely*** blamelessness, conformation to His image, justification, adoption, obtaining an inheritance and glory ***SHALL BE GIFTED/BEQUEATHED to/upon those*** who WILL (in their time) believe, those who WILL (in their time) CHOOSE to enter the covenant.
These "THINGS"
never "THESE PERSONS"

So a hayseed such as myself has exploded the 600 year old Reformer myth of predestination on some backwater message board?

Say it isn't so @rogerg @Cameron143 @Magenta

You have yet of offer a cogent rebuttal, nor do we expect any. For obvious reasons.
 
Let the determinists "suppress" this simplicity if they WILL. It's their CHOICE.

Yes, I am seeing there are many ways to assault the Good News, suppressing the "simplicity" of the call to believe and place one's faith in a personal Saviour for salvation has to be one of most egregious accepted within the orthodoxy of Christian.