Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

Jesus confirms my assessment of course.
Only because I first confirmed His.

[Mat 23:15 NKJV]
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

You should lie down. You are starting to become delusional.

 

[studier]

having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage

Love the language. So many here have bidden adieu to the true meaning of passages. And some don't care...

 

[HeIsHere]

I am but just but not through you, @cv5 or @HeIsHere or others of your ilk - I don't think truth will/can be found with you guys since
you got it wrong from the get-go.

Actually we hold to traditional soteriology.
The one where God sets the "condition" >>>> FAITh in Christ Jesus, the object of one's FAITH, for receiving the gift of salvation.

 

[Rufus]

rolleyes ... no one has claimed that Adam "sacrificed" himself ... all agree Adam sinned ... what has been claimed is that Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and became one flesh with his wife after she ate of the tree.

God is the One Whose offering was "sacrificed" for both Adam and Eve. Apparently, God's sacrifice was insufficient in your eyes ... smh ...
.

Really? How does any "superhero" escape having a self-sacrificing heart? I mean Adam did rescue Eve, right? He really pulled her bacon out of the fire, right?

Well...you need to get some biblical evidence, as there is for Eve, that Adam accepted God's "offering" by faith. You and many others here merely assume he did, even though there is not one positive spiritual thing said about Adam anywhere in the bible. Heck...even for Adam's progeny, the outlook is gloomy because when anyone dies in this superhero federal head of the human race, he'll be roastin' and toastin' for eternity.

 

[rogerg]

From the ilk of Adam Clarke:

“Acts 13:48: As many as were ordained to eternal life believed – This text has been most pitifully misunderstood. Many suppose that it simply means that those in that assembly who were fore-ordained; or predestinated by God’s decree, to eternal life, believed under the influence of that decree. Now, we should be careful to examine what a word means, before we attempt to fix its meaning. Whatever τεταγμενοι may mean, which is the word we translate ordained, it is neither προτεταγμενοι nor προορισμενοι which the apostle uses, but simply τεταγμενοι, which includes no idea of pre-ordination or pre-destination of any kind. And if it even did, it would be rather hazardous to say that all those who believed at this time were such as actually persevered unto the end, and were saved unto eternal life. But, leaving all these precarious matters, what does the word τεταγμενος mean? The verb ταττω or τασσω signifies to place, set, order, appoint, dispose; hence it has been considered here as implying the disposition or readiness of mind of several persons in the congregation, such as the religious proselytes mentioned Acts 13:43, who possessed the reverse of the disposition of those Jews who spake against those things, contradicting and blaspheming, Acts 13:45. Though the word in this place has been variously translated, yet, of all the meanings ever put on it, none agrees worse with its nature and known signification than that which represents it as intending those who were predestinated to eternal life: this is no meaning of the term, and should never be applied to it. Let us, without prejudice, consider the scope of the place: the Jews contradicted and blasphemed; the religious proselytes heard attentively, and received the word of life: the one party were utterly indisposed, through their own stubbornness, to receive the Gospel; the others, destitute of prejudice and prepossession, were glad to hear that, in the order of God, the Gentiles were included in the covenant of salvation through Christ Jesus; they, therefore, in this good state and order of mind, believed. Those who seek for the plain meaning of the word will find it here: those who wish to make out a sense, not from the Greek word, its use among the best Greek writers, and the obvious sense of the evangelist, but from their own creed, may continue to puzzle themselves and others; kindle their own fire, compass themselves with sparks, and walk in the light of their own fire, and of the sparks which they have kindled; and, in consequence, lie down in sorrow, having bidden adieu to the true meaning of a passage so very simple, taken in its connection, that one must wonder how it ever came to be misunderstood and misapplied. Those who wish to see more on this verse may consult Hammond, Whitby, Schoettgen, Rosenmuller, Pearce, Sir Norton Knatchbull, and Dodd.”

I think Mr. Clark did a pretty good job here. How about you?

And there are some technical things in the language he didn't even touch on.

Wait... what? you're still going on about that? Really? "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". That says it all and is core gospel doctrine. Go with it. It is just that you don't like it because it directly contradicts and invalidates what you believe in, and you can't accept that. The sooner you start over the better off you'll be.

 

[HeIsHere]

You should lie down. You are starting to become delusional.

Nope, it is just how repulsive we find this soteriology .... where god saves some arbitrarily, and leaves others in their sin with no ability to respond positively to GOOD NEWS created that way (unable) unless they are activated by this god first.

Yes in plain language that is the doctrine.

 

[Cameron143]

I have not time at the moment but I will post the Greek analysis going into the clauses which refutes this.

If faith were a gift then it be plainly stated.
It is not.

John 3:14-15 (see also John 1:29; Numbers 21:6-9; 1st John 2:2; 2nd Corinthians 5:14-15)
“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.”

Not whoever is "gifted" belief.

Don't bother. Answer this please: how many people were gifted salvation apart from faith?

 

[rogerg]

Actually we hold to traditional soteriology.
The one where God sets the "condition" >>>> FAITh in Christ Jesus, the object of one's FAITH, for receiving the gift of salvation.

Yeah, I know that's what you believe, but that makes man the savior, and not Christ the Savior. To be Savior, He must do the saving - all of it - from start to finish with nothing left out of it.

 

[cv5]

I am but just but not through you, @cv5 or @HeIsHere or others of your ilk - I don't think truth will/can be found with you guys since
you got it wrong from the get-go.

Well then, if you so CHOOSE to follow wise men and scribes, investing thousands of hours of study and toil, do that

Or if you so CHOOSE to follow the pied piper, following blindly, do that.

But never doubt that it was your decision that led to the final destination.....

 

[Magenta]

I think Mr. Clark did a pretty good job here. How about you?

Are you a Methodist?

 

[Cameron143]

Nope, it is just how repulsive we find this soteriology .... where god saves some arbitrarily, and leaves others in their sin with no ability to respond positively to GOOD NEWS created that way (unable) unless they are activated by this god first.

Yes in plain language that is the doctrine.

More misrepresentation. More dishonesty. You guys are birds of a feather.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yeah, I know that's what you believe, but that makes man the savior, and not Christ the Savior. To be Savior, He must do the saving - all of it - from start to finish with nothing left out of it.

Then you are outside of correct biblical soteriology and have adopted one concocted by men.

 

[HeIsHere]

More misrepresentation. More dishonesty. You guys are birds of a feather.

Yes we know you prefer the lofty stylized approach, provides better cover.

You forget we do not understand by the way!

 

[studier]

Wait... what? you're still going on about that? Really? "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". That says it all and is core gospel doctrine. Go with it. It is just that you don't like it because it directly contradicts and invalidates what you believe in, and you can't accept that. The sooner you start over the better off you'll be.

Just getting started... Thought you'd enjoy some other ilk & a known scholar saying "This text has been most pitifully misunderstood"

 

[Magenta]

Wait... what? you're still going on about that? Really? "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".
That says it all and is core gospel doctrine. Go with it. It is just that you don't like it because it directly contradicts
and invalidates what you believe in, and you can't accept that. The sooner you start over the better off you'll be.

They have bidden adieu to the true meaning of passages. And they don't care...

 

[Cameron143]

Yes we know you prefer the lofty stylized approach, provides better cover.

You forget we do not understand by the way!

Oh you understand. I used to believe you didn't understand. But you do. You simply choose to deliberately misrepresent. You're not stupid, just dishonest.

 

[Magenta]

Just getting started... Thought you'd enjoy some other ilk & a known scholar saying "This text has been most pitifully misunderstood"

The whole Bible has been most pitiably understood. Especially by free willers.

They have been caught contradicting and denying verses from Genesis through to Revelation.

A multitude of verses. A plethora even.

They belly ache about the verses we provide, as well.

They really complain a lot about the Truth of Scripture!

 

[Rufus]

Tall order >>>> "think" not possible when one's brain has been emotionally, psychologically captured by a false system of salvation and a certain belief they have been chosen [BY] "divine favor salvation" above others [who would never desire to be saved in the first place].

FTFY!

 

[rogerg]

Well then, if you so CHOOSE to follow wise men and scribes, investing thousands of hours of study and toil, do that

Or if you so CHOOSE to follow the pied piper, following blindly, do that.

But never doubt that it was your decision that led to the final destination.....

You obviously didn't understand my post

 

[Jordon]

I have not time at the moment but I will post the Greek analysis going into the clauses which refutes this.

If faith were a gift then it be plainly stated.
It is not.

John 3:14-15 (see also John 1:29; Numbers 21:6-9; 1st John 2:2; 2nd Corinthians 5:14-15)
“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.”

Not whoever is "gifted" belief.

any faith people had in the old t was based more on obedience,

Or any kind of faith given to people of the old t was based on give and take

For instance the father would repeatedly set out conditions, for people of what people could receive if they obeyed him.

Like this verse here


Exodus 15:26

New International Version

26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, who heals you.”

For the people of the old it was all about what they could receive for being obedience

So it was never an inner faith like the faith that comes with ,the day you received a new seed of new light,

The kind of faith that doesn't look for reward but loves God.