Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[HeIsHere]

That post by @Rufus is a hot mess. Not worth the time to address.
Most of the posts by the Reformed crowd are similar in nature, as you well know.

@Magenta posted a FRACTION of Acts 13:48, and promptly assigned Reformed doctrine to the passage.
I then replied with an astute analysis of the TRUE meaning in the Greek, and.........crickets.

Tricky passage BTW. But rightly interpreted, Calvinistic determinism is nowhere to be found.

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange....lieved-been-appointed-or-readied-and-prepared

"When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and the many believers were put in order and organized for eternal life."​

Or further anglicized:

"When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and the new believers were prepared* for eternal life."​

Very interesting, so important to dig deeper when there are verses that seem to contradict other very clear concepts/teachings in scripture.

"Hot Mess" is the best description ever of Calvinism/Reformed theology.

 

[studier]

As though your personal answer to your own questions is a resounding "no"! YOU are the one who gave God no credit for a man's faith. You have unequivocally stated that it's MAN himself (believers and unbelievers alike) who make the difference between accepting and rejecting the gospel.

And...whatever YOU think the "work of God" is, you certainly do not recognize that work as being efficacious in nature, which accounts for why you ultimately have given sinners the credit for coming to faith. It was their will that ultimately was efficacious.

You pay good lip service to God though...I give ya that.

Contrary to the continuing slander, non-determinists give God all the credit, since His Word and Spirit bring conviction. Luke says convicted unbelievers received the word (Acts2:41), which is a real volitional response to God’s initiative. Paul Agrees with this in 1Thess2:13, where he says the Thessalonians received the Word of God and accepted it as what it really is, the Word of God. As always: God’s Word + His convicting Spirit > men choose to believe.

 

[cv5]

Which proves that Israel could only act according to their sinful nature.

Even the Israelites that did in fact hearken to the COMMAND of the "Man of God" Moses (a type of Christ), looked upon the bronze serpent on a pole (a type of Christ) and were healed and lived?

Well then, given this Biblical scenario, it becomes quite clear that sinning Israelites were perfectly capable of BOTH hearing AND heeding commands. And that they possessed INDEPENDENT volition sufficient to trek a few hundred yards and "get saved".

[Num 21:9 NKJV]
So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

 

[Rufus]

The text makes no such claim about it not being present, neither do I see the term "spiritual faith" in the passage.

Logic is not your strong point, is it? If faith is a natural, God-given instinct in every man, woman and child, then why would He have to supernaturally have to grant faith to his people?

And what is faith if not a spiritual VIRTUE!? Read 1Cor 13 someday.

 

[Magenta]

That comment borders on sheer lunacy: everyone is wrong but you.
All you own is vapor.

It seems he finds Scripture laughable.

 

[Rufus]

Contrary to the continuing slander, non-determinists give God all the credit, since His Word and Spirit bring conviction. Luke says convicted unbelievers received the word (Acts2:41), which is a real volitional response to God’s initiative. Paul Agrees with this in 1Thess2:13, where he says the Thessalonians received the Word of God and accepted it as what it really is, the Word of God. As always: God’s Word + His convicting Spirit > men choose to believe.

YOU did not give God ANY credit (let alone all) when you DETERMINED that the moral/spiritual difference between believers and unbelievers ultimately lies with each and every individual himself. It was each individual's efficacious volition that ultimately caused him to come to faith.

You cannot see your own own duplicity, can you?

 

[studier]

Which proves that Israel could only act according to their sinful nature. Israel sinned because they are sinners by nature.

And, yes, those commands were "summonses to obedience", which I pointed out in my post in different words. God revealed to his people their duty to Him! And He expected them to keep all His law all the time. Was God a madman!? How could He have such an unreasonable, impossible expectation? Didn't He know beforehand that the vast majority of the nation would fail? Why would God set the moral/spiritual bar so high if he knew his people would fall so low?

Moses told Israel, ‘This commandment is not too hard for you’ (Deut30:11). Paul applies the same in Rom10:8 — ‘the word is near you… the word of faith we proclaim.’ God’s word is always given as a real summons to believe and obey.

 

[rogerg]

It seems he finds Scripture laughable.

Yes, he does, and that doesn't say much for his posts within a Bible forum.

 

[Magenta]

Contrary to the continuing slander, non-determinists give God all the credit, since His Word and Spirit bring conviction. Luke says convicted unbelievers received the word (Acts2:41), which is a real volitional response to God’s initiative. Paul Agrees with this in 1Thess2:13, where he says the Thessalonians received the Word of God and accepted it as what it really is, the Word of God. As always: God’s Word + His convicting Spirit > men choose to believe.

Contrary to all your slander, and puffed up ego-asserting self aggrandizing, we affirm what Scripture says, although your preference is to rewrite 1 Cor 2:14 because you claim it doesn't mean what it says or what we think it does when we think it means what it says... the natural man cannot receive the things of God. Scripture further affirms and we believe that the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and he is a slave to sin REFUSING to come into the light, so with all your pretensions and deceptions and rejections of Scripture, you saying you believe Scripture is laughable. God gets the credit for raising people to new life and giving them a new heart to replace the God-hating heart they were born with so they CAN believe and respond in the positive to God.

 

[rogerg]

Contrary to all your slander, and puffed up ego-asserting self aggrandizing, we affirm what Scripture says, although your preference is to rewrite 1 Cor 2:14 because you claim it doesn't mean what it says or what we think it does when we think it means what it says... the natural man cannot receive the things of God. Scripture further affirms and we believe that the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and he is a slave to sin REFUSING to come into the light, so all your pretensions and deceptions and rejections of Scripture aside, you saying you believe Scripture is laughable. God gets the credit for raising people to new life and giving them a new heart to replace the God-hating heart they were born with so they CAN believe and respond in the positive to God.

It's like he's trying to use the old shell game trick. In this case, however, our eyes are quicker than his hand.

 

[cv5]

Contrary to all your slander, and puffed up ego-asserting self aggrandizing, we affirm what Scripture says, although your preference is to rewrite 1 Cor 2:14 because you claim it doesn't mean what it says or what we think it does when we think it means what it says... the natural man cannot receive the things of God. Scripture further affirms and we believe that the natural man is opposed to the spiritual things of God which he can neither receive nor comprehend, and he is a slave to sin REFUSING to come into the light, so all your pretensions and deceptions and rejections of Scripture aside, you saying you believe Scripture is laughable. God gets the credit for raising people to new life and giving them a new heart to replace the God-hating heart they were born with so they CAN believe and respond in the positive to God.

1 Cor 2:14 because you claim it doesn't mean what it says..... the natural man cannot receive the things of God.

On the contrary we affirm that it DOES mean what it says. That the natural man "RECEIVETH NOT" the things of the Spirit of God.

If you fail to understand the difference, well, there is nothing more to be said.
And nothing more that anyone can do for you either.

 

[Magenta]

When asked who then can be saved? Jesus said with man it is impossible.

I affirm what Jesus said. With God all things are possible. God changes man's incurably wicked heart. Man cannot.

Scripture explicitly articulates these things. I believe them.

It is God Who gets the credit, not man, but these Pelagian heretics cannot see with their blind eyes.

 

[Rufus]

I haven't said that my beliefs aren't reformed. I told you explicitly that they were. But reformed beliefs didn't inform my doctrine. My doctrine informed that my beliefs were reformed. The great thing about getting saved later in life is that you don't have any preconceived ideas. You come in as basically a blank slate. So you can approach the Bible with far fewer presumptions.

Great point! God saved me in mid-life. And what was even better is that I was not a religious person. By that time in life, I had dumped and virtually forgot all my Catholic religious education. So...my mind was virtually a "blank slate" when it came to religious, spiritual or metaphysical truth.

 

[Rufus]

1 Cor 2:14 because you claim it doesn't mean what it says..... the natural man cannot receive the things of God.

On the contrary we affirm that it DOES mean what it says. That the natural man "RECEIVETH NOT" the things of the Spirit of God.

If you fail to understand the difference, well, there is nothing more to be said.
And nothing more that anyone can do for you either.

He "receiveth not" because it's not in his nature to do so! A carnivore does not receive grass, hay or fruit to eat because it's not in his nature to do so.

 

[cv5]

He "receiveth not" because it's not in his nature to do so! A carnivore does not receive grass, hay or fruit to eat because it's not in his nature to do so.

Another swing and a miss!

 

[Magenta]

Moses told Israel, ‘This commandment is not too hard for you’ (Deut30:11). Paul applies the same in Rom10:8 — ‘the word is near you… the word of faith we proclaim.’ God’s word is always given as a real summons to believe and obey.

Why don't you believe 1 Cor 2:14? Why don't you believe Romans 8:7?

You have a major problem not being able to take the full account into consideration.

I believe some call it harmonizing. Try practising it sometime.

Make an effort to lay what you have been taught to think aside.

We have people here telling us man is born able to do the things Scripture says he is unable to do.

I know you side with them. Try putting all that aside as well.

 

[HeIsHere]

Logic is not your strong point, is it? If faith is a natural, God-given instinct in every man, woman and child, then why would He have to supernaturally have to grant faith to his people?

And what is faith if not a spiritual VIRTUE!? Read 1Cor 13 someday.

Is he addressing "saving faith" NOPE!

 

[Magenta]

Is he addressing "saving faith" NOPE!

What faith do you have in God when so many times you have claimed He is unfair?

Then you have the audacity to tell us you are defending His character.

You do not even believe what Jesus said about how people come to know God.

What you must consider to be your best thinking leads you to mock and scoff at those who believe what Jesus said.

You repeatedly tell us man is not born incapable when Scripture says he is.

 

[Cameron143]

W'all don't have a problem with the natural man. Y'all do.

Also, you're trying to tell us what is impossible for God - that God cannot make the unbeliever understand the Truth in order to make him responsible for active receipt or rejection.

Re: the Gospel, among other things, we think highly of God's power He's instilled in His Gospel and in the ability of His Spirit to convict/convince the unbeliever of what he needs to know to choose to believe God or to reject God. We think highly of Jesus' ability to draw all men to Himself.

@reneweddaybyday has covered the 1Cor2-3 Scripture well in this thread more than once. I've covered it also and @reneweddaybyday and I (and others) from what I read are in agreement. I think I've also taken it into some of the Greek wording which gives even more reason to see it as we do.

No. I'm saying God actually does make unbelievers understand. That's what biblical hearing is. Not only is it possible, God, in fact, does it every day...and the Lord added daily such as should be saved.

 

[Rufus]

@Cameron143, like many Reformed, thinks the idiom of being stabbed in the heart is circumcision - as he says. So, he has circumcision of heart before belief (circ > what shall we do? > believe). Good luck...

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need. 46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:36-47 NKJ)

What's the order of salvation here?

Do we have to look further into Luke-Acts to see the order of salvation according to Luke or to those he speaks about?

Is v.37 really the circumcision of the heart? It doesn't say it is.

But the unilateral New Covenant promise is to be found in Deut 30, to which the chapter is alluding.