No they do not. You made that up. Go and read Paul again, if you ever have to begin with. Romans 7.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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From: John 8 verse 34; 2 Peter 2 verse 19a; Galatians 4 verse 8; Romans 7 verse 14; Ephesians 2 verse 3b; Romans 6 verse 6 ~ “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” They are slaves of corruption. When you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. You were of the flesh, sold under sin. We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Our old self was crucified so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
What would you think was meant if someone said, "Some people may have needed help from God."
Looks like its face palm time again.......
Just to let you know @Cameron143 , this scenario is quite impossible. Like super duper absolutely impossible.
This is key in this debate @studier.
The reformed/calvie/tulip side cannot say they were humble when they received Grace..........The natural man cannot believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
They were the worst of the worst, proud, arrogant....natural men. And miraculously received Grace right in the middle of their proud lives.
Just fixing the formatting so my questions are clear:
Do you believe that non-determinists think they generate faith apart from the work of God and magnify man?
Do you believe that non-determinists leave God out of any part of the salvation process and magnify themselves in that regard?
Do you believe that non-determinists think they generate faith apart from the work of God and magnify man?
Do you believe that non-determinists leave God out of any part of the salvation process and magnify themselves in that regard?
Hello folks.
Very interesting topic - free will !
A main problem here is to define the concept of "free will". How should we define it ?
Very interesting topic - free will !
A main problem here is to define the concept of "free will". How should we define it ?
And yet you leave God out of the volitional part. Paul says I live, yet not I; Christ. But you say...I choose, but leave off the part that Christ chooses in me.Looks like its face palm time again.......
Just to let you know @Cameron143 , this scenario is quite impossible. Like super duper absolutely impossible.
Even a 3rd grader can determine he has read and studied the scriptures.
What you lack? Gods perspective. You have mankind so in your mind, you cannot see God in scripture.
Focus on God for a while.......It makes life GOOD.(divine good.)
You probably should take a shot at it. After 574 pages there are few attempts and no consensus. It's mainly used as a pejorative against those who disagree with Calvinism or Determinism or Monergism or Reformed or whatever moniker anyone is willing to accept for their Reformed beliefs.
Choosing fries over salad has zero bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, so we really
need to start with determining what the conversation, such as it is, is really about.
We are discussing what the Bible says of man. Not what philosophy or humanism says.
People making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing it in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.
This is the crux of the conversation, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favour of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated, and really seem unable to stop ascribing to the unregenerated man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that only the regenerated person is in possession of.
Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.
We are discussing what the Bible says of man. Not what philosophy or humanism says.Choosing fries over salad has zero bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, so we really
need to start with determining what the conversation, such as it is, is really about.
We are discussing what the Bible says of man. Not what philosophy or humanism says.
People making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing it in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.
This is the crux of the conversation, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favor of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated.
Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.
OK, but what does the Bible say of free will ?
I think they think they don't because of the way they parse their words, but in reality they do. On the one hand they say God produces faith, but they choose to believe or not believe. But in reality, if God produces faith in an individual, they do believe. While it is an act of volition, it is actually the only choice that can be made given one's newly acquired faith.
Yes, in practice, I believe they do, again because they make salvation more about their choice rather than the activity of God.
After God awakens us, manifests Himself to us, opens our consciousness [examples for all 3 found in Romans 1, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians 2] the decision we choose to either accept or reject God is our Free Will action.
Up to that point you are a slave to your natural sin nature and should you accept the Gift from God you are now slave to His Spiritual Nature.
Nothing, really, in the way free will pushers proclaim. The natural man is enslaved to sin and
opposed to the spiritual things of God. Did you even read my post? Are you truly interested?
By theory they are but they're not condemned which one would hope should a Christian sin they would feel bad and repent.