Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

theres a consistency about certain things between man and god from the beginning to the end based upon how mankind is designed by God to function and live

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: ( freedom )

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: ( choice )

for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”( consequence )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the first man ever born after they sinned and came to know good and evil


“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right,

sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Now we see man is in a conflict caught between good and evil. But still there’s an option and results of each choice and action.

Then hundreds of years after when the law eventually came to the newly formed children of Israel still they are in the same old boat of choice and consequence

“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15-19‬ ‭

then long after we still see the same principle of the same option

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Throughout the ot prophets he calls israel to repentance and warns what will happen if they don’t repent of serving other gods . and Still when Jesus came same principles

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Still after Jesus ascended to heaven same thing cain was told in different words ….” If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? “

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s epistles still hold the same

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or evil . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger……. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-8, 11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

All the way to Christs final statements in the Bible

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:12-13‬ ‭

My question is did God make cain unable To do good and be accepted ? Or did cain choose the evil when he was faced with his choice ?

did god create us wrong that we can’t do what he commands us to do ? Or do we corrupt our own selves by choosing the evil set before us along with life ?

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ( life and blessing )

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”( death and cursing )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

It seems god has always made us able but we continually rebel against him because of the evil we partake of in the world . It’s confusing when we begin with the proposition we’re incapable that sort of puts the owness for our failures on our creator I believe Adam , cain , and so on we’re all capable but also corrupt by the evil they partook of continually in the world

Super-determinism is more than willing to throw 99.99% of the Bible under the bus to suit their doctrine.

Anything less and whoops there goes their pre -chosenite theory right down the drain.

 

[studier]

why didn't you answer my question:

You should be used to my ignoring much of what you say. There's not much point to a lot of it.

What wags what: Action wags the will or does the will wag action? Did Jesus choose to go the Cross route after he was hanging on it, or before the God-hating world nailed Him to it?

I disagree with determinism, as you know, and I think it’s important to see where human and divine will are actually addressed. Jesus said, ‘I lay it down of my own accord.’** His will governed His action. If you claim the nails kept Him there, are you saying Roman nails overpowered—wagged—the will of the Son of God?

**Interesting translation and notes (#46 based in BDAG Lexicon):

NET John 10:18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down45 of my own free will.46 I have the authority47 to lay it down, and I have the authority48 to take it back again. This commandment49 I received from my Father."

NET Notes (John 10:18)​

45 tn Or "give it up."​

46 tn Or "of my own accord." "Of my own free will" is given by BDAG 321 s.v. ἐμαυτοῦ c.​

47 tn Or "I have the right."​

48 tn Or "I have the right."​

49 tn Or "order."​

​

All done for now Rufus. We both know this bantering goes nowhere.

 

[cv5]

Just admit it! You are slowly becoming reformed...
It is just taking longer than we thought......

No not really.
In fact I'm becoming more revolted by the whole "pre-birth sovereign lottery" thing more quickly the more I hear of it in a third order derivative sense.

 

[studier]

In fact I'm becoming more revolted by the whole "pre-birth sovereign lottery" thing

You're not alone in this.

 

[cv5]

You should be used to my ignoring much of what you say. There's not much point to a lot of it.



I disagree with determinism, as you know, and I think it’s important to see where human and divine will are actually addressed. Jesus said, ‘I lay it down of my own accord.’** His will governed His action. If you claim the nails kept Him there, are you saying Roman nails overpowered—wagged—the will of the Son of God?

**Interesting translation and notes (#46 based in BDAG Lexicon):

NET John 10:18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down45 of my own free will.46 I have the authority47 to lay it down, and I have the authority48 to take it back again. This commandment49 I received from my Father."

NET Notes (John 10:18)​

45 tn Or "give it up."​

46 tn Or "of my own accord." "Of my own free will" is given by BDAG 321 s.v. ἐμαυτοῦ c.​

47 tn Or "I have the right."​

48 tn Or "I have the right."​

49 tn Or "order."​

​

All done for now Rufus. We both know this bantering goes nowhere.

Not to mention that Jesus made the wood and nails and literally held their infantesmal bits together in real time while the crucifixion was taking place.

And before that He did the same to the Roman fists and whips. And fueled the muscles that drove them.

 

[studier]

Not to mention that Jesus made the wood and nails and literally held their infantesmal bits together in real time while the crucifixion was taking place.

And before that He did the same to the Roman fists and whips. And fueled the muscles that drove them.

May be too deep for some here.

 

[Genez]

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Which part of that is not grace?

Faith is not grace.

Faith is faith.

Grace empowerment allows our souls the freedom to think with Faith.
But, faith is knowledge of God's Word utilized because it is believed.

 

[cv5]

Faith is not grace.

Faith is faith.

Grace empowerment allows our souls the freedom to think with Faith.
But, faith is knowledge of God's Word utilized because it is believed.

The super-determinists never fail to make a mess of these things. It must be terrible to suffer such unnecessary chaos and confusion.

[Rom 4:16 KJV]
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

[Rom 5:2 KJV] 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Cameron143]

Faith is not grace.

Faith is faith.

Grace empowerment allows our souls the freedom to think with Faith.
But, faith is knowledge of God's Word utilized because it is believed.

Show me where I said faith is grace. Oops, you cannot. If you are going to begin with something that another hasn't said, you will conclude with something another hasn't said.

What I did say was that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In other words:
The word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
Both are accomplished by the Spirit of God employing the word of God. The whole process is the exercise of grace.

 

[Genez]

The super-determinists never fail to make a mess of these things. It must be terrible to suffer such unnecessary chaos and confusion.

[Rom 4:16 KJV]
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

[Rom 5:2 KJV] 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

They will continue to be that way because they craved to be firm and sure in the face of fear.

For some?

Nothing will allow for that initial fear of doubting that comes with salvation to return.

For to question? And try to analyze differently, what finally sat right with them in the beginning?
Will have them hearing insecurity knocking at the door trying to get back in to reconsider.
So, some just make up their mind to close it.

That's why those who were willing to endure working out their salvation in fear and trembling?
Who with enough correct correlation became secure?
Might be a target of resentment...

Our problem can be returning evil with evil.

 

[Genez]

Show me where I said faith is grace. Oops, you cannot. If you are going to begin with something that another hasn't said, you will conclude with something another hasn't said.

Here is what I responded to:

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Which part of that is not grace?

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5564168​

 

[Kroogz]

Edward, that is not the crux of the conversation. This has been explained to you already.

Choosing fries over salad has zero bearing on the eternal fate of your soul.

Do you see how silly this is? We can choose to kill ourselves with fries and oil, but God forbid us choosing our ETERNAL DESTINY!

We are discussing what the Bible says of man. edge.

YOU are discussing what the bible says of man. You do not discuss what GOD did for man.

 

[cv5]

Show me where I said faith is grace. Oops, you cannot. If you are going to begin with something that another hasn't said, you will conclude with something another hasn't said.

What I did say was that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In other words:
The word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
Both are accomplished by the Spirit of God employing the word of God. The whole process is the exercise of grace.

"Rescuing, saving grace is the only cause necessary to produce faith"

Is what you said. False BTW.

 

[Kroogz]

Not to mention that Jesus made the wood and nails and literally held their infantesmal bits together in real time while the crucifixion was taking place.

And before that He did the same to the Roman fists and whips. And fueled the muscles that drove them.

Just for the elect ....Right?

Reformed/ calvies/tulip folks have a pretty small box.

 

[Cameron143]

Here is what I responded to:

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Which part of that is not grace?

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5564168​

So which part doesn't come by grace?

 

[cv5]

But we do have free will and you use it every day. Every decision you make you use free will.

As has been aptly demonstrated already, all Genesis 3 parties manifested objective true free will. And ALL parties had to deal with the consequences thereof.

God Himself included.

 

[Cameron143]

"Rescuing, saving grace is the only cause necessary to produce faith"

Is what you said. False BTW.

Try to stay up...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. This is how God exercises grace and produces faith.

 

[Kroogz]

"Rescuing, saving grace is the only cause necessary to produce faith"

Is what you said. False BTW.

The carefully crafted word salads are very important in the reformed/calvie/tulip world.

 

[Genez]

Just for the elect ....Right?

Reformed/ calvies/tulip folks have a pretty small box.

A Flower box.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus said, "Not my will, but Thine be done

At all times Jesus submitted His will to the Father's will.