Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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1 Cor 1:18 does not state that "natural man ... does not comprehend the gospel".

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

As explained to you many many times, what is referred to in 1 Cor 2:14 speaks of spiritual aspects of the wisdom of God which go beyond the scope of the gospel. Once a person is born again ... then he or she is to feed on the milk of the Word until he or she is able to eat meat and move on to spiritual truths that are revealed in 1 Cor 2:6-16.

don't know if you'll believe this truth or again suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... we'll only know when the tenor of your panels reflects the increase God brings to your heart concerning what is written in 1 Cor 2:14 and you finally quit conflating what is written in 1 Cor 1:18 with what is written in 1 Cor 2:6-14.
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Interestingly, this term is used only 5 times, and all in 1 Corinthians....

[1Co 1:18 KJV]
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;[G3472] but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[1Co 1:21 KJV]
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness[G3472] of preaching to save them that believe.

[1Co 1:23 KJV]
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;[G3472]

[1Co 2:14 KJV]
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness[G3472] unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[1Co 3:19 KJV]
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness[G3472] with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
 
God is the One Who established His plan of redemption in eternity past ... we are just living through that plan and we either believe what God wrote in Scripture (or Scripture a faithful believer preaches) or we don't ... whatever decision we make determines where we will spend eternity future.
Gods plans will never fail. There is nothing which can alter their outcome!
Prov 16:9 Prov 19:21 Acts 5:38-39

Are you claiming that His plans somehow depend on our actions?
 
1 Cor 1:18 does not state that "natural man ... does not comprehend the gospel".
Right. And again, the text says only that the natural "receiveth not" the gospel.
A crucial distinction that has been made over and over again.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness G3472 unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Could it be that the super-determinsts "receiveth not" the intended lesson and truth of the passage?
Could it be?
:unsure::unsure::unsure:
 
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Checked if it was possible, however, it probably doesn't matter i can't update my original post after the mess you lot have made of it! After, not because :p Just realised i forgot to mention it's at least exceptionally likely Adam and Eve had pure free will. It's a certainty to my mind they did, they were perfect in all ways but not automatons, so could rationalise a selfish, wicked desire.

Because we are fallen, not only did we become incapable of true, free will because of our corruption; the consequences of our actions mean we need the cooperation of others, if what we want to do could impact them badly.

A bit sad i didn't include that in the original post. However, definitely unsure if it would have made much difference.
 
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Futility.
In Numbers 20, Moses receives a direct command from God face to face (this command meant to codify a prophetic truth being revealed in real time BTW).

And Moses WILLFULLY refuses to comply, and in fact discharges his OWN WILL in the matter. Essentially Moses (and Aaron) wanted out.....by God killing them, which they fully expected to happen. God DOES supply water and DOES NOT kill them on the spot.

And yet the super-determinists say that men are utterly incapable of real free will thoughts and actions?
Preposterous. I await the super-determinist's typical response of bafflegab, incoherent ranting, shucking and jiving and smoke-screening.

[Num 20:6 KJV]
And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.

[Num 20:7 KJV]
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

[Num 20:8 KJV]
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

[Num 20:9 KJV]
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.

[Num 20:10 KJV]
And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

[Num 20:11 KJV]
And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts [also].

[Num 20:12 KJV]
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

[Num 20:13 KJV]
This [is] the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD, and he was sanctified in them.
 
In Numbers 20, Moses receives a direct command from God face to face (this command meant to codify a prophetic truth being revealed in real time BTW).

And Moses WILLFULLY refuses to comply, and in fact discharges his OWN WILL in the matter. Essentially Moses (and Aaron) wanted out.....by God killing them, which they fully expected to happen. God DOES supply water and DOES NOT kill them on the spot.

And yet the super-determinists say that men are utterly incapable of real free will thoughts and actions?
Preposterous. I await the super-determinist's typical response of bafflegab, incoherent ranting, shucking and jiving and smoke-screening.

[Num 20:6 KJV]
And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they fell upon their faces: and the glory of the LORD appeared unto them.

[Num 20:7 KJV]
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

[Num 20:8 KJV]
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

[Num 20:9 KJV]
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.

[Num 20:10 KJV]
And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

[Num 20:11 KJV]
And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts [also].

[Num 20:12 KJV]
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

[Num 20:13 KJV]
This [is] the water of Meribah; because the children of Israel strove with the LORD, and he was sanctified in them.
"And Moses WILLFULLY" Of course, we all have will for sure, it's FREE will we don't have.
 
according to Romans 1:16-19, when the gospel is preached, a person either believes and receives the blessing ... or the person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and receives the consequence as shown in vss 21-32.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation ... is that the "empowering grace" you're looking for?

the just shall live by faith means that the life of the believer is a continuous walk of faith ... our walk with the Lord begins in faith and continues in faith from beginning to end of this earthly walk.


Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

To hold the truth in unrighteousness is to suppress or restrain the truth.

what happens a lot of times when we read Romans 1 is that we read vss 16-17 without including vss 18-19 so we come away with a disjointed understanding. We know vss 16-17 refers to believers and vss 18-19 refers to unbelievers ... but do we realize that when the truth of the gospel is revealed to someone, he or she either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness? There's no sitting on the fence until we decide one way or the other.
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Theres no doubt the Gospel is an empowering grace, all the revelations of Christ are empowering the whole gospel is an examination of the heart also, it has to be as it holds the power to save.

I feel it's the gospel of Christ that the father examines the heart with, in the time that he for- knows every indivudual, The father sent his son to preach the Gospel of heaven for the power to save, it there for makes complete sense that the father will examine the heart with the whole gospel.

There then must come a point when the heart is enabled as written in the bible , at which point I feel it's an irresistible grace, I tell you that no can Come to me unless the father has enabled them John 6.65.

At which point you repent and faith is given, your handed over to the son

Faith is a gift of God, the scriptures make indication faith isn't something that cant be earned, ephesians 2:8-9

We see that faith is a gift, but more importantly it's also empowering, a special Gift that can't be miss used,
Faith must be shared. It mustn't be miss used in anyway.

Out of kindness the father enabled the heart, to receive his son and all the gifts of the spirit.

But we see that many people want answers to the process before hand and are unable to agree about that process,

The only way to son is through being saved by the Grace of the Father, as written no-one can come to me unless the father has enabled them.

For me it has to be the process of being enabled from the father
has to be an empowering grace, that leads to an irresistible grace.

In away you could say two enabling take place.

Since the heart is naturally wicked and since natural man does not discern the spiritual things of heaven, a child showing kindness which is a spiritual discernment of heaven, more than likely has the first enabling.
spoke of.

And you could say that's how it is for all people until they reach the point of irresistible grace,

That this is How God For knows everyone because all mankind has fallen and this is the only way mankind can respond, because without that enabling, no one can respond

But instead we see people not understanding this. We see questions like why should I be blamed for the fall.

Well your not if we see that you have received some enabling.

there it is my faith.

Go easy on me Because mainly it's the faith of my late mum 😊
 
"And Moses WILLFULLY" Of course, we all have will for sure, it's FREE will we don't have.
Is that so? Why exactly? Because you say so?
I reject your assertions outright, rather, I will refer to what is being clearly portrayed in the passages.

Which is a man, Moses (who God knew face to face, loved by God, servant of God) who did his own will in direct defiance of His, knowing full well the consequences.
 
Because we are fallen, not only did we become incapable of true, free will because of our corruption; the consequences of our actions mean we need the cooperation of others, if what we want to do could impact them badly.

Only because we gave up our dominion of the earth and gave it to satan. And we were immediately sold into bondage and they say, don't do this, dont do that.
 
Theres no doubt the Gospel is an empowering grace, all the revelations of Christ are empowering the whole gospel is an examination of the heart also, it has to be as it holds the power to save.

I feel it's the gospel of Christ that the father examines the heart with, in the time that he for- knows every indivudual, The father sent his son to preach the Gospel of heaven for the power to save, it there for makes complete sense that the father will examine the heart with the whole gospel.

There then must come a point when the heart is enabled as written in the bible , at which point I feel it's an irresistible grace, I tell you that no can Come to me unless the father has enabled them John 6.65.

At which point you repent and faith is given, your handed over to the son

Faith is a gift of God, the scriptures make indication faith isn't something that cant be earned, ephesians 2:8-9

We see that faith is a gift, but more importantly it's also empowering, a special Gift that can't be miss used,
Faith must be shared. It mustn't be miss used in anyway.

Out of kindness the father enabled the heart, to receive his son and all the gifts of the spirit.

But we see that many people want answers to the process before hand and are unable to agree about that process,

The only way to son is through being saved by the Grace of the Father, as written no-one can come to me unless the father has enabled them.

For me it has to be the process of being enabled from the father
has to be an empowering grace, that leads to an irresistible grace.

In away you could say two enabling take place.

Since the heart is naturally wicked and since natural man does not discern the spiritual things of heaven, a child showing kindness which is a spiritual discernment of heaven, more than likely has the first enabling.
spoke of.

And you could say that's how it is for all people until they reach the point of irresistible grace,

That this is How God For knows everyone because all mankind has fallen and this is the only way mankind can respond, because without that enabling, no one can respond

But instead we see people not understanding this. We see questions like why should I be blamed for the fall.

Well your not if we see that you have received some enabling.

there it is my faith.

Go easy on me Because mainly it's the faith of my late mum 😊
Most Calvinists conjure up lots of fallacies about "faith". Its tragic man.

[Act 26:15 KJV]
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

[Act 26:16 KJV]
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

[Act 26:17 KJV]
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

[Act 26:18 KJV]
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

[Rom 5:2 KJV]
By whom also we have access by faith ***into*** this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[Rom 5:2 KJV]
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[Act 3:16 KJV]
And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
 
Most Calvinists conjure up lots of fallacies about "faith".

Agreed.

I've also seen conjuring by other traditions.

It's an extensive topic in Scripture. It's interesting how something so central and vital is so misunderstood and a point of so much disagreement.
 
Is that so? Why exactly? Because you say so?
I reject your assertions outright, rather, I will refer to what is being clearly portrayed in the passages.

Which is a man, Moses (who God knew face to face, loved by God, servant of God) who did his own will in direct defiance of His, knowing full well the consequences.
No dear, something somewhat irrational people like you lack, logic! There's plenty of evidence we have will, my typing this post is such evidence, what we don't have is FREE will. Which is the ability to exercise our will without restraint.

Also, you appear short on ethical thinking too, as do many of your buddies. Well, that's if there are many of you and not just a few hyperactive trolls. Added to that, i can stand on my own two feet, definitely have some hold my beer moments. You can't and need others to back you up in your errancy.
 
I'd like to know more of why you object to "free".
Under the power and influence of the wicked one. Taken captive to do the will of the devil. Unable to obey or submit to God.

This is what free willers call free. Slaves to sin, lovers of darkness, hostile to God, opposed to the spiritual things of God, incapable
of receiving or understanding the very thing you guys claim he can just decide to believe when it is heard as foolishness.
Refusing to come into the light out of fear, incurably wicked heart, no fear of God which is the beginning of wisdom...
Blinded to the truth, cannot come to God on his own, does not seek for God, is helpless and ungodly, is dead in his sins.
 
No dear, something somewhat irrational people like you lack, logic! There's plenty of evidence we have will, my typing this post is such evidence, what we don't have is FREE will. Which is the ability to exercise our will without restraint.

Also, you appear short on ethical thinking too, as do many of your buddies. Well, that's if there are many of you and not just a few hyperactive trolls. Added to that, i can stand on my own two feet, definitely have some hold my beer moments. You can't and need others to back you up in your errancy.

Can you and/or will you elaborate? After 500+ pages from your OP, here's your opportunity. Let's stick to the point.
 
Only because we gave up our dominion of the earth and gave it to satan. And we were immediately sold into bondage and they say, don't do this, dont do that.

And there's me thinking it's because we sinned against the LORD, who had given us everything. Think it likely that as the LORD didn't just destroy them, the evil which ensued might ultimately have served a worthwhile purpose.
 
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No dear, something somewhat irrational people like you lack, logic! There's plenty of evidence we have will, my typing this post is such evidence, what we don't have is FREE will. Which is the ability to exercise our will without restraint.

Also, you appear short on ethical thinking too, as do many of your buddies. Well, that's if there are many of you and not just a few hyperactive trolls. Added to that, i can stand on my own two feet, definitely have some hold my beer moments. You can't and need others to back you up in your errancy.
What is yielding to do your own will to do God's Will called?

You see someone and suddenly get a feeling that you should give money to them [which is God's Will wanting to be done through you].
But you choose to ignore it and go on your merry way [which is your own will being done].
Or you choose to obey God and give [which is your own will being laid down by YOU in order to do God's Will].

I don't think you realize just how much freedom to choose what you do in everything that you do.
 
Most Calvinists conjure up lots of fallacies about "faith". Its tragic man.

[Act 26:15 KJV]
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

[Act 26:16 KJV]
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

[Act 26:17 KJV]
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

[Act 26:18 KJV]
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

[Rom 5:2 KJV]
By whom also we have access by faith ***into*** this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[Rom 5:2 KJV]
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[Act 3:16 KJV]
And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
what fallacies are you taking about ?

I only see you reciting scripture about faith I don't understand what your doing here m, whether or not your posting these scripture to refute what I posted ?

Or what it is your even refuting.

The only thing I can see is you may be thinking faith first before grace ?

They go hand in hand friend through the gift of faith you have continuous access to his grace.

Do you believe faith is a gift from God.
 
Can you and/or will you elaborate? After 500+ pages from your OP, here's your opportunity. Let's stick to the point.
Those 500+ pages are mainly filled with bilge from you and your buddies sweetheart. Not surprised you can't see the irony in you posting such an obviously hypocritical comment.
 
What is yielding to do your own will to do God's Will called?

You see someone and suddenly get a feeling that you should give money to them [which is God's Will wanting to be done through you].
But you choose to ignore it and go on your merry way [which is your own will being done].
Or you choose to obey God and give [which is your own will being laid down by YOU in order to do God's Will].

I don't think you realize just how much freedom to choose what you do in everything that you do.
Sorry, you might be sincere but your post isn't rational. God can work his will through us whenever he wants, we can't exercise our will whenever we want, so don't have free will.