Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

it's not in my nature to add something else or should I say add something that shouldn't be added.

But in christ he chose us before the world was made.

Us here refering to people, people whom he chose to be saved before he made the world.

Us refering to people, people using the term us, not the term us Jews


They didn't say he chose us Jews and no one else they said us.

Without bringing up many scripture obtaining to God knowing who are his sheep who will saved, who's names will be written in lambs book of life, or the vision John was made to of all the souls who will parish.

Or the many scriptures of God for knowing everyone

It wouldn't be wise to believe the word us means just those select people at that time.

But really Jew or gentile God has made no distinction.

The only really distinction is first cane the Jew then the gentile.

Peace

Paul is writing to the Jews and you ignore that so you can make it about you?

Everyone is saved through Christ but only 1 people throughout the Bible was ever called Chosen.

Doctrines of Man, didn't Jesus warn us about your beliefs?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It came to my attention recently that when the natural man who does not comprehend the gospel

1 Cor 1:18 does not state that "natural man ... does not comprehend the gospel".

1 Corinthians 1:

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

These verses do not state that those who are perishing cannot understand the message of the cross ... they do understand ... and they consider the message of the cross foolish. iow, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness due to holding man's wisdom (the wisdom of words – 1 Cor 1:17 or the wisdom of the wise – 1 Cor 1:19) above the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

As explained to you many many times, what is referred to in 1 Cor 2:14 speaks of spiritual aspects of the wisdom of God which go beyond the scope of the gospel. Once a person is born again ... then he or she is to feed on the milk of the Word until he or she is able to eat meat and move on to spiritual truths that are revealed in 1 Cor 2:6-16.

don't know if you'll believe this truth or again suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... we'll only know when the tenor of your panels reflects the increase God brings to your heart concerning what is written in 1 Cor 2:14 and you finally quit conflating what is written in 1 Cor 1:18 with what is written in 1 Cor 2:6-14.
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[Jordon]

Paul is writing to the Jews and you ignore that so you can make it about you?

Everyone is saved through Christ but only 1 people throughout the Bible was ever called Chosen.

Doctrines of Man, didn't Jesus warn us about your beliefs?

Hold on a minute.

Think about this rationally.

You say paul is writing to the Jews, but then say I'm ignoring that,

Do you see How that's being irrational ?

You didn't answer my question or other views.

Is there any chance you can.

 

[Magenta]

laughable really, really that making God look stupid, but more than likely doing what a lot of people do m, putting God inside a box.

The only thing I have some element of concern over is whether the person still has to to choose after they've been enabled.

Which would then fall into empowering grace, if once they've been enabled they then don't have to choose, does it fall into irresistible grace, I get confused over that idea it stuck in my head long ago.

Yes, I understand, though Jesus did say that those given to Him by God will come to Him. There is no, I am giving them the option, they then can choose whether they want to or not. This is expressed in ways such as irresistible grace, which one way I understand it is, having had the Holy Spirit convict me of my sinful nature, and my standing before an all powerful and holy God, and agreeing with Him, certainly knowing how unworthy I am of His love, love which He did make me very much aware of, as well as His forgiveness through the cross of Christ, even though I did not understand the cross of Christ at the time... having the truth revealed to me, which is an act of the Holy Spirit's leading, it is not so much that I chose to believe, but that upon reflection it was almost like a revelation of suddenly discovering that I did believe... after many years of running from God in rebellion and defiance, after being raised Roman Catholic and quitting the church as a teen, and exploring and seeking and practising, for many years, other options I thought were "spiritual," because anything seemed better than the God of the Bible, and that is the truth of the incurably wicked heart for humanity as a whole. I was almost fifty when I converted and was baptized.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Did you not say earlier that if Adam had not sinned, he would have still been condemned anyway?

nope ...

is this the statement you are referring to?

even if a person could go his or her lifetime without sinning ... that still would not save him or her from the lake of fire ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith.

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[reneweddaybyday]

But FWers here have certainly tried! "Enabled" to a FWer only means that God plugs a person into a cosmic outlet (in a manner of speaking), but that person has to choose with his/her "freewill" to turn on the switch. Everything God does has only potential enabling power, just like He's a potential savior. Each individual has to use his "freewill" to choose to activate that power, which FWers usually label as an "opportunity".

under that definition of "FWers" ... I do not believe anyone who has posted in this thread is a "FWer".
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[reneweddaybyday]

The only thing I have some element of concern over is whether the person still has to to choose after they've been enabled.

Which would then fall into empowering grace, if once they've been enabled they then don't have to choose, does it fall into irresistible grace, I get confused over that idea it stuck in my head long ago.

according to Romans 1:16-19, when the gospel is preached, a person either believes and receives the blessing ... or the person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and receives the consequence as shown in vss 21-32.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation ... is that the "empowering grace" you're looking for?

the just shall live by faith means that the life of the believer is a continuous walk of faith ... our walk with the Lord begins in faith and continues in faith from beginning to end of this earthly walk.


Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

To hold the truth in unrighteousness is to suppress or restrain the truth.

what happens a lot of times when we read Romans 1 is that we read vss 16-17 without including vss 18-19 so we come away with a disjointed understanding. We know vss 16-17 refers to believers and vss 18-19 refers to unbelievers ... but do we realize that when the truth of the gospel is revealed to someone, he or she either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness? There's no sitting on the fence until we decide one way or the other.
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[Rufus]

laughable really, really that making God look stupid, but more than likely doing what a lot of people do m, putting God inside a box.

The only thing I have some element of concern over is whether the person still has to to choose after they've been enabled.

Which would then fall into empowering grace, if once they've been enabled they then don't have to choose, does it fall into irresistible grace, I get confused over that idea it stuck in my head long ago.

Irresistible Grace and free moral agency are not mutually exclusive theological concepts. It's not an either/or situation. God's people are "made willing" in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). And that "power" includes the promises made in the New Covenant such as a new heart, the Fear of the Lord implanted in God's covenant people's hearts, the circumcision of His people's hearts, etc. All of these are vitally important and necessary components to salvation because this supernatural work of God puts new desires into his elect's hearts. And it's our desires that are the engine to the volition. Our desires drive our choices. So...when God puts these godly desires into the hearts of his people through His salvific mechanisms, they will indeed choose to believe the gospel and repent of their sins.

As I've often have said on this thread (and others), this whole discussion about man's volition is a huge satanic smokescreen to detract investigation, study and dialogue into the real issue. And real deal issue is not man's will (which is only one of our four faculties!) but his heart which is the seat of all our faculties. For a person to believe with his heart (Rom 10:9-10) means ALL the faculties that drive his choices are engaged, not just the volition. This is why man's heart is spoken of far more often than his "will" in scripture. If the heart of a man is corrupt, then all his faculties are corrupt. It's impossible to get fresh water from a salty stream (Jas 3:12)!

Hopes this helps...

Have a pleasant evening, sir.

 

[Rufus]

under that definition of "FWers" ... I do not believe anyone who has posted in this thread is a "FWer".
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Neither am I "calvie".

But I'm glad to hear that you have apparently repented of your "freewill" zany, ill-conceived ideas.

 

[Magenta]

Amen, Rufus! (post 10,528)

Psalm 37 verse 4 Delight yourself in the LORD, and He will give you the desires of your heart.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, I understand, though Jesus did say that those given to Him by God will come to Him. There is no, I am giving them the option, they then can choose whether they want to or not. This is expressed in ways such as irresistible grace, which one way I understand it is, having had the Holy Spirit convict me of my sinful nature

According to John 16, the Holy Spirit reproves the whole world of sin:

John 16:8-9 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me

ever wonder why unbelievers become so unhinged when a believer speaks the truth of God's Word? ... it's because the Holy Spirit is convicting them ... and they attack the messenger ...

I was almost fifty when I converted and was baptized.

praise God ... and we'll see each other in eternity Magenta ... bet you can hardly wait ... hah!!!
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[Rufus]

Paul is writing to the Jews and you ignore that so you can make it about you?

Everyone is saved through Christ but only 1 people throughout the Bible was ever called Chosen.

Doctrines of Man, didn't Jesus warn us about your beliefs?

You finally have something right! I agree totally! The one people are all of Abraham's spiritual descendants! How else is the entire Abrahamic Covenant ever going to get fulfilled, right?

Of course, whether or not you actually know to whom Paul was addressing (in whatever epistle you're alluding to) is an entirely different story and issue. I'd say the odds are against you having it right...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Neither am I "calvie".

when have I ever referred to you ... or anyone else for that matter ... as a "calvie".

But I'm glad to hear that you have apparently repented of your "freewill" zany, ill-conceived ideas.

rolleyes ... just can't help yourself, can you? ... do you feel better now after feeding your flesh?
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[Magenta]

From Galatians 4 v 22-24 plus 28-29 and 5 v 1 Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise. These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery. We, like Isaac, are children of promise. The son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

 

[Jordon]

Irresistible Grace and free moral agency are not mutually exclusive theological concepts. It's not an either/or situation. God's people are "made willing" in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). And that "power" includes the promises made in the New Covenant such as a new heart, the Fear of the Lord implanted in God's covenant people's hearts, the circumcision of His people's hearts, etc. All of these are vitally important and necessary components to salvation because this supernatural work of God puts new desires into his elect's hearts. And it's our desires that are the engine to the volition. Our desires drive our choices. So...when God puts these godly desires into the hearts of his people through His salvific mechanisms, they will indeed choose to believe the gospel and repent of their sins.

As I've often have said on this thread (and others), this whole discussion about man's volition is a huge satanic smokescreen to detract investigation, study and dialogue into the real issue. And real deal issue is not man's will (which is only one of our four faculties!) but his heart which is the seat of all our faculties. For a person to believe with his heart (Rom 10:9-10) means ALL the faculties that drive his choices are engaged, not just the volition. This is why man's heart is spoken of far more often than his "will" in scripture. If the heart of a man is corrupt, then all his faculties are corrupt. It's impossible to get fresh water from a salty stream (Jas 3:12)!

Hopes this helps...

Have a pleasant evening, sir.

Thanks I will sir, I enjoyed reading this very pleasant refreshing post,

Thanks for sharing your beliefs, which are pretty much in line with how I see things, I've never believed in free will, Even before I ever had discussions about it.

It's something that's never sat right in my heart, which could have something to do with my late mum to.

So i would have to to say it's irresistible grace I'm more inclined to believe. As without it being enabled who is going to repent.

Repentance I believe does indeed have to be given. All tho many people would says it's simply a change of mind, no it's more than that. For I believe its when God is examining your heart.

You can't just simply change your mind Let God enable you, and then choose when your going to repent.

 

[lrs68]

You finally have something right! I agree totally! The one people are all of Abraham's spiritual descendants! How else is the entire Abrahamic Covenant ever going to get fulfilled, right?

Of course, whether or not you actually know to whom Paul was addressing (in whatever epistle you're alluding to) is an entirely different story and issue. I'd say the odds are against you having it right...

We know Paul typically addresses the Jews first. In fact, we know he had Timothy [whose mother was Jewish] get physically circumcised in order to reach the Jews with the Gospel. So it's rather easy for Theologians and Scholars to see Paul's efforts towards the Jews.

 

[Jordon]

according to Romans 1:16-19, when the gospel is preached, a person either believes and receives the blessing ... or the person suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and receives the consequence as shown in vss 21-32.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation ... is that the "empowering grace" you're looking for?

the just shall live by faith means that the life of the believer is a continuous walk of faith ... our walk with the Lord begins in faith and continues in faith from beginning to end of this earthly walk.


Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

To hold the truth in unrighteousness is to suppress or restrain the truth.

what happens a lot of times when we read Romans 1 is that we read vss 16-17 without including vss 18-19 so we come away with a disjointed understanding. We know vss 16-17 refers to believers and vss 18-19 refers to unbelievers ... but do we realize that when the truth of the gospel is revealed to someone, he or she either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness? There's no sitting on the fence until we decide one way or the other.
.

Thanks for sharing, I'll reflect on your post, and give it a study tomorrow bye for now.

 

[resto]

Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?

I understand what you are saying. Its a Tough Call. I guess the question is, "Is The Revelation Of Christ, From Gods Holy Spirit, By Gods Will, Enough"? If it is, Then, "How Much Power Of Will or Power To Choose Does The Slave Of Sin(Born In Sin) Have? Did God Kick The Door in, Throw in FlashBangs and Rescue a Hostage? Thats how I came. I throw my Crown at His Feet. I didnt even know I was Up For Adoption. "Those Whom He Did Foreknow" has Volumes of Commentary and Layers of Revelation.

 

[Magenta]

I understand what you are saying. Its a Tough Call. I guess the question is, "Is The Revelation Of Christ, From Gods Holy Spirit, By Gods Will, Enough"? If it is, Then, "How Much Power Of Will or Power To Choose Does The Slave Of Sin(Born In Sin) Have? Did God Kick The Door in, Throw in FlashBangs and Rescue a Hostage? Thats how I came. I throw my Crown at His Feet. I didnt even know I was Up For Adoption. "Those Whom He Did Foreknow" has Volumes of Commentary and Layers of Revelation.

Colossians 1 verse 13 ~ He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.

 

[studier]

As explained to you many many times

Futility.