Israel.

[Aaron56]

Ignorant comment that denies scripture to fit your own prejudice. Read Romans 11.

Again, the subject is Israel as a nation, not the spiritual state of the Jewish people. If you cut down the tree where the graft is, the graft dies. Christians are grafted in, not replacing, the "tree" of Israel.

Romans 11 does not stand alone. It is one passage among many that must be considered together in the scriptures to understand the full revelation.

But let's start with a simple question: How do you understand the verse "Not all of Israel is Israel"?

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 11 does not stand alone. It is one passage among many that must be considered together in the scriptures to understand the full revelation.

But let's start with a simple question: How do you understand the verse "Not all of Israel is Israel"?

It definitely implies Two different Israels in Gods perspective.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Ha! I knew it. You ARE a former member of ZZ Top!

Yea lol that’s how I got my nickname it’s the beard

 

[Needevidence]

I just had a discussion about this on another site. The scripture we were discussing was Genesis 17 where God is speaking to Abraham, again, and says that He will give “all the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING possession.” Verse 8. I did some study on that and here is what the SCHOLARS said, and I quote: “The word Everlasting in languages like the Hebrew and Greek does not always mean FOREVER or endless duration in the Bible. It can also refer to a long, indefinite period or an “age” lasting era.”

For example, also in Genesis 17, God said that the “covenant” He made with Abraham was also, EVERLASTING. But in Jeremiah 31:31 Jeremiah prophecies that one day God would make a NEW covenant with His people, not like the one He made with their fathers. Then, in Hebrews 8, the Holy Spirit says that the New Testament of Jesus Christ is the NEW covenant that Jeremiah spoke of —even quoting and repeating the prophecy he gave. To say a covenant is EVERLASTING and then say there will one day be another, NEW COVENANT, seems to be a contradiction, or a falsehood, but since I know the Bible does not lie or contradict itself, there must be another explanation.

Another example from that same chapter in Genesis is the EVERLASTING covenant of circumcision. God said it was EVERLASTING. But in 1 Corinthians 7:19, Paul, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit says circumcision is nothing. It’s not important anymore. It doesn’t matter anymore. Circumcision is not a law anymore to be obeyed, especially for Christians. How can that be if it is EVERLASTING? There has to be another explanation for these “seeming”contradictions.

I believe the scholars have the answer. These Old Testament promises were only to last for an “age” or an era. A significant event in Biblical history was the destruction of the Jews, their temple, and Jerusalem in AD 70. It destroyed the Jews as a Nation; it destroyed all of their genealogies. The Jews prided themselves on being the children of Abraham. Remember how the Jews bragged to Jesus about being descendants of Abraham? John 8:31-39? Now, since AD 70, there is not a Jew who can trace his ancestry back to Abraham. All of the records were destroyed. It was the end of an ERA, the end of an “AGE”. This happened in less than 40 years after Jesus took away their old law of Moses and nailed it to His cross. Colossians 2:14-17.

Now if 1) the EVERLASTING covenant promise in Genesis 17 is NOT forever as proven by Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8, AND 2) the EVERLASTING covenant of circumcision is not FOREVER as proven by the Holy Spirit through Paul in the New Testament, then it is logical to believe that 3) the EVERLASTING land promise was NOT FOREVER either, since they are all in the same chapter and in the same context.

You will not find ONE scripture in the NEW COVENANT that tells us to “bless”, support, or help the Jews. On the contrary, the New Covenant of Jesus Christ portrays them as “against Christ” (Antichrist) in 1 John 2:22, 4:3., enemies to the gospel Romans 11:28; and without God 1 John 2:23, 2 John 9. I will never stand with the ones who are against and reject my Savior—Jew or gentile. They cannot be God’s chosen people anymore. They don’t even have Gid as their FATHER. “ Whoevet DENIES THE SON, does NOT have the Father either..” 1 John 2:23.

Agreed - a few point FYI

1) a conflict after one passage

Isaiah 32: 14 For the palace will be forsaken, the busy city abandoned. The hill and the watchtower will become caves forever (‘ō-w-lām)—the delight of wild donkeys and a pasture for flocks—

15 until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high. Then the desert will be an orchard, and the orchard will seem like a forest.

[so is it forever or until?]

Cambridge Commentary says:

The phrase for ever must be understood in a relative sense, being restricted by the “until” of Isaiah 32:15.


2) forever or three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17)


Jonah 2:6

To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever [olam]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit.


3) Deut 11:26-27

26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse—

27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today;

28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.



4) Jeramiah 11:10 – they have turned back going after other Gods – how could they have broken my covenant


5) Strong's Concordance 5769

olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity

le’olam - denotes a very long period of time, but nonetheless has an end point.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It definitely implies Two different Israels in Gods perspective.

Old covenant v new covenant

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭

flesh and blood doesn’t make someone special to god or make them Abraham’s children. Paul’s showing us there are two ways to identify Israel , by thier flesh and blood meaning they are a blood decsendant of Abraham but that has changed

neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What Paul’s saying is Abraham’s children are born like this

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ( Abraham’s seed )There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7, 16, 27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

The children of Israel are jacobs children a nation of people god has chosen all along and entered into a covenant with to be his priests and servants and fellows to govern over the new earth to come.

the children of Abraham father of many nations according to the promise of Christ his seed come from every nation and are identified by thier belief in Jesus Christ and the gospel of his kingdom

israel is one of many nations is my point believing doesn’t make a gentile an Israelite ot makes them a child of Abraham the father of many nations because of this and not flesh and blood

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the ot the children of Abraham were only isralites ishmael was cast out and wasn’t an hier now anyone who believe the gospel Jew or gentile is Abraham’s seed and hiers according to the promises made to him by the lord

 

[Beckworth]

Agreed - a few point FYI

1) a conflict after one passage

Isaiah 32: 14 For the palace will be forsaken, the busy city abandoned. The hill and the watchtower will become caves forever (‘ō-w-lām)—the delight of wild donkeys and a pasture for flocks—

15 until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high. Then the desert will be an orchard, and the orchard will seem like a forest.

[so is it forever or until?]

Cambridge Commentary says:

The phrase for ever must be understood in a relative sense, being restricted by the “until” of Isaiah 32:15.


2) forever or three days and three nights (Jonah 1:17)


Jonah 2:6

To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever [olam]. But you, LORD my God, brought my life up from the pit.


3) Deut 11:26-27

26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse—

27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today;

28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.



4) Jeramiah 11:10 – they have turned back going after other Gods – how could they have broken my covenant


5) Strong's Concordance 5769

olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity

Original Word: עוֹלָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: olam
Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm')
Definition: long duration, antiquity, futurity

le’olam - denotes a very long period of time, but nonetheless has an end point.

Very interesting. I’m keeping this for a reference. Thank you .

 

[brightfame52]

Old covenant v new covenant

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭

flesh and blood doesn’t make someone special to god or make them Abraham’s children. Paul’s showing us there are two ways to identify Israel , by thier flesh and blood meaning they are a blood decsendant of Abraham but that has changed

neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

What Paul’s saying is Abraham’s children are born like this

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ( Abraham’s seed )There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7, 16, 27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

The children of Israel are jacobs children a nation of people god has chosen all along and entered into a covenant with to be his priests and servants and fellows to govern over the new earth to come.

the children of Abraham father of many nations according to the promise of Christ his seed come from every nation and are identified by thier belief in Jesus Christ and the gospel of his kingdom

israel is one of many nations is my point believing doesn’t make a gentile an Israelite ot makes them a child of Abraham the father of many nations because of this and not flesh and blood

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭17:5‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the ot the children of Abraham were only isralites ishmael was cast out and wasn’t an hier now anyone who believe the gospel Jew or gentile is Abraham’s seed and hiers according to the promises made to him by the lord

Abrahams spiritual seed of believers are the result of Gods promise.

God raised up this spiritual seed to Abraham Matt 3:9

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

A believer is Gods work, creation

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Robin Westman, who died of a self-inflicted gunshot after killing two children at Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis, Minn., wrote of murdering “filthy Zionist Jews,” that “six million wasn’t enough” and “free Palestine,” the New York Post reported.

This is why I stand against this rhetoric, some of it used in this thread, so strongly. This man murdered two children, 8 and 10, and terrorized many more children. Their lives will never be the same. They will never feel safe again. They will never be innocent again. When we continue to use racist terms and push hate, or question the Holocaust happened, you in flame people to do violence. The blood of these two innocent children is on the hands of every single person that spews this type of rhetoric.

I was watching a video the other day on the subject of the Holocaust. In the comments one after another said that the same thing is happening in America today. That is a flat out lie. These lies are going to get more people killed. Palestine is not a country, less chance of that happening now than ever before, it is free and it is not occupied. These lies are triggering people who are uninformed to become violent. This is why I have continued to post in this thread. Two innocent little ones lost their lives, the rhetoric needs to stop. If you continue, you're part of the problem, not the solution. You're triggering unstable people and this is the result. smh

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Abrahams spiritual seed of believers are the result of Gods promise.

God raised up this spiritual seed to Abraham Matt 3:9

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

A believer is Gods work, creation

Lol uh yeah all creation is gods work . But I was just saying the verse you were talking about is an explaination by Paul that fits with the rest of what he taught about the subject Abraham’s children and the children of Israel are not the same thing .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Robin Westman, who died of a self-inflicted gunshot after killing two children at Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis, Minn., wrote of murdering “filthy Zionist Jews,” that “six million wasn’t enough” and “free Palestine,” the New York Post reported.

This is why I stand against this rhetoric, some of it used in this thread, so strongly. This man murdered two children, 8 and 10, and terrorized many more children. Their lives will never be the same. They will never feel safe again. They will never be innocent again. When we continue to use racist terms and push hate, or question the Holocaust happened, you in flame people to do violence. The blood of these two innocent children is on the hands of every single person that spews this type of rhetoric.

I was watching a video the other day on the subject of the Holocaust. In the comments one after another said that the same thing is happening in America today. That is a flat out lie. These lies are going to get more people killed. Palestine is not a country, less chance of that happening now than ever before, it is free and it is not occupied. These lies are triggering people who are uninformed to become violent. This is why I have continued to post in this thread. Two innocent little ones lost their lives, the rhetoric needs to stop. If you continue, you're part of the problem, not the solution. You're triggering unstable people and this is the result. smh

Yeah people have bastardized the term “ Zionist “ it’s actually a term to describe the movement man came up with to place Jews back onto the land in the Bible. It was never a derogatory term into modern days , of course neither was Palestinian derogatory or wrong .

It usually in the intent of the people or person saying things . Something like “ filthy Zionist Jew “ is meant to be derogatory by the combination of words used by the speaker . It’s an extension of the issue in thier heart. Same thing would go for saying “ dirty Palestinian terrorist “ either way the intention of the speaker is derogatory and hate filtered meaning rhe person saying it is looking right through hate and grievance to see it the way they do . Wouldn’t matter who we are talking about if I was called “ an old hypocritical Christian who just needs a crutch “ ot shows more about the person saying it than the person being insulted by far . Sure I’m old and sure I’m a Christian and truthfully I could use a crutch lately my ankles are in bad shape but the insult wasn’t about those things it was just insult and lashing Just reveals the spirit on those who use those types of statements showing an issue they need to deal with in thier heart . Same with people who hate Palestinians and say things intentionally derogatory . Ot hi jacks the word normal folks use in normal ways like if two people were discussing rationally , the Zionist movement calling one a Zionist wouldn’t be derogatory. But “filthy dirty Zionist occupier “ is another zone entirely

 

[brightfame52]

@Pilgrimshope

Abraham’s children and the children of Israel are not the same thing .

Yes they are, where you get that false notion from ?

 

[God-fearing]

And the jews are not alone.

 

[God-fearing]

Our president speaks the truth badly to the faces in the middle east.

 

[TabinRivCA]

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates – the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites." – Genesis 15:18–21. Canaan includes Palestine y'all.

 

[Mikael156]

Hoping to share some education here:

1. State of Israel was created by Atheistic Jews who could no longer handle the long 2000 year exile and pushed for a man made redemption.

2. All religious Jews and their leaders (The Chofetz Chaim, The Brisker Rav, R'Elchanan Weissman, R'Aharon Kotler, R'Moshe Feinstein etc) all were AGAINST the State of Israel and warned many Jews about the suffering it would cause.

- The Brisker Rav said, "The Zionists didn't want to cause a Holocaust to create a State, they want to create a State in order to create a final Holocaust for the Religous Jews"

3. Many if not all real religious Jews back in the day knew that the Zionists caused both World Wars & The Holocaust...and would cause future Wars and the Final Holocaust (The War of Gog and Magog - The Book of Revelation and the Beast)

4. Just look today how the Religious Jews fight the Atheist Jews on the streets: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/niLTsVKi9cg

5. The Founders of the Jews State (Ben Gurion, Hertzl, Jabowitzki etc) are all outwardly spoken about their hate of their own people

.... There is much more to share...how evil this State is against G-d and Jews themselves are aware of this

 

[Mikael156]

To Christian Zionists (Or Those in Support of Zionism)

My post above is to warn those who support this state, it is clear to Jews that this is the Beast of Amalek not Palestine, even though Muslims for Jews are definitely an enemy. But know that for 1300 years, Sephardic Jews got along with Muslims for the most part even today Jews live in Iran and Morocco as long as they are not Zionists.

Thanks to the Scofield Bible and creating twisted ideologies, were Christians (70 Million Today), sold on this idea of the State of Israel...which is completely evil from head to toe. I live here, so I can first hand tell you how evil it is towards G-d!

"THE STATE OF ISRAEL HATES G-D....Period" Just go look at Tel Aviv and it's capital...

You must not "drink of here wine"...do not support the State of Israel, do not fund the State of Israel and warn follow Christians just how evil the State is. It has fooled many Christians and maybe even more Jews as a percent. For Jews themselves are fooled!

Jews were made Jews on Har Sinai/Mount Sinai because they accepted the Torah from G-d and Moshe...that was the moment G-d made the Children of Israel. That is clear fact throughout the Torah/5 Books of Moses. The Land is also clearly stated as a place to conduct and fulfill their Torah, to do Good Deeds and to SERVE G-D...and if they don't serve G-d...the land will spit them out (in its time), which they have been exiled for 2000 years.

So again, this is a WARNING to all Christian Zionists, that G-d is testing the world, Jews or Non-Jews/Christians to pick wisely...but yes..
PRAY FOR THE JEWS...HOPE FOR REDEMPTION and HOPE FOR G-d to BRING THE REAL ISRAEL back...and this includes praying for the innocent lives of Gaza...but only through prayer will anything come to be.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Hoping to share some education here:

1. State of Israel was created by Atheistic Jews who could no longer handle the long 2000 year exile and pushed for a man made redemption.

2. All religious Jews and their leaders (The Chofetz Chaim, The Brisker Rav, R'Elchanan Weissman, R'Aharon Kotler, R'Moshe Feinstein etc) all were AGAINST the State of Israel and warned many Jews about the suffering it would cause.

- The Brisker Rav said, "The Zionists didn't want to cause a Holocaust to create a State, they want to create a State in order to create a final Holocaust for the Religous Jews"

3. Many if not all real religious Jews back in the day knew that the Zionists caused both World Wars & The Holocaust...and would cause future Wars and the Final Holocaust (The War of Gog and Magog - The Book of Revelation and the Beast)

4. Just look today how the Religious Jews fight the Atheist Jews on the streets: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/niLTsVKi9cg

5. The Founders of the Jews State (Ben Gurion, Hertzl, Jabowitzki etc) are all outwardly spoken about their hate of their own people

.... There is much more to share...how evil this State is against G-d and Jews themselves are aware of this

Who cares what any man says, dig up anyone you love. God is alive and well in Israel PROTECTING Israel to this day. Here's some education for you...Israel will remain standing only by God's Providence til the end.
The Book of Revelation depicts Israel as a central figure in end-times events, particularly in Revelation 12, where it is symbolized as a woman persecuted by the dragon (Satan) after giving birth to a son. It also describes the Antichrist making a covenant with Israel, only to break it and cause a period of intense suffering for the nation. These passages suggest a future where Israel, despite existing unbelief, faces significant tribulation but ultimately experiences God's protection and a glorious future, with prophecies of its scattering and regathering found in other parts of the Bible as well.

 

[Mikael156]

On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates – the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites." – Genesis 15:18–21. Canaan includes Palestine y'all.

The IDF in short is so Anti-G-d and so Anti-Religion that Jews fight the IDF all day long. Just look at our protests: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yeshiva+students+protest

Devarim/Deut 13:1-5: 13 “If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ‘Let us follow other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us worship them,’ 3 do not listen to that prophet’s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you.

We are clearly taught that G-d tests us, even with the success of evil because we should have been wise never to trust the evil ones in the first place!

Here are some facts to know...

 

[Mikael156]

Who cares what any man says, dig up anyone you love. God is alive and well in Israel PROTECTING Israel to this day. Here's some education for you...Israel will remain standing only by God's Providence til the end.
The Book of Revelation depicts Israel as a central figure in end-times events, particularly in Revelation 12, where it is symbolized as a woman persecuted by the dragon (Satan) after giving birth to a son. It also describes the Antichrist making a covenant with Israel, only to break it and cause a period of intense suffering for the nation. These passages suggest a future where Israel, despite existing unbelief, faces significant tribulation but ultimately experiences God's protection and a glorious future, with prophecies of its scattering and regathering found in other parts of the Bible as well.

Correct their will be a future Israel...but who says its now? Do you even live in Israel? Are you even aware of all the Religious Jews screaming daily how evil the State is?

 

[TabinRivCA]

Correct their will be a future Israel...but who says its now? Do you even live in Israel? Are you even aware of all the Religious Jews screaming daily how evil the State is?

Yeah right, God is protecting and securing an evil state. I've seen current day miracles from God, defending Israel and of course Satan hates anything God loves. So regardless of all the hate, I don't even pay attention to it.