Jesus actually chose individuals??? Who would have ever thunk?
John 15 verse 5c; Philippians 2 verse 13 ~ Apart from Me you can do nothing. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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John 15 verse 5c; Philippians 2 verse 13 ~ Apart from Me you can do nothing. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.
Matthew 7:17-18, Luke 6:4a and from John 15:4-5 ~ Every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. I am the vine and you are the branches. Apart from Me you can do nothing.
You totally lost me.Errrrr.......not quite. Be careful......
[Psa 65:4 KJV]
Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
Did God not do the choosing? Was He not the cause of the approaching?
you and someone else who complains they are "ignored" should commiserate with each other ... you guys are not ignored ... what is ignored is the ongoing, continuous ripping of verses from context and holding up said verses of Scripture with no compulsion to stick to what the Author of Scripture actually wrote and wanted us to understand.
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rolleyes ... another fine "scratching where there is no itch" moment from Rufus ...
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The original post, by lrs68, was about Moses and the burning bush, and implied that Moses made a freewill choice to turn and look at the bush. I simply turned it up-side-down to say that this was God's way of getting his attention and that it caused him to turn.Errrrr.......not quite. Be careful......
[Psa 65:4 KJV]
Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
still doesn't change the fact that God dealt solely with Moses ... to make known His ways ... while the children of Israel saw only the physical results of God acting in their behalf.
you keep missing the point ... just believe what Scripture reveals and quit trying to conform what is written in Scripture to whatever dogma you hold to ... all you're doing is scratching where there is no itch!!! ... sheesh !!!
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The point is goes back to Deut 29:4 which says God never gave the nation as a whole ears to hear or eyes to see, which means they never had genuine understanding. Israel, on whole, had a love affair with the darkness of their ignorance.
And for your info, Moses was hand-picked by God, as in CHOSEN by Him!
Well you have to admit that that Proverbs 8 passage harmonizes quite nicely with what Jesus taught about the nature of His love and His Father's in Jn 10, 14, 15 and 16.
We just supposed to understand that any verses that talk about God choosing are not really about the subject of the choosing, but rather those kinds of passages are all about how the recipients "respond" to the choosing. Once we "understand" this convoluted, twisted reasoning, then all the FW dominoes fall into place.
Moses chose to suffer affliction rather than to enjoy the pleasure of sin for a season ...
Hebrews 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Do you know who taught Moses about God? His mother!!!
Exodus 2:1-10 And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi. And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months. And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink. And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him. And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river's side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it. 6 And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children. Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother. And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed it. And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
I love God's Word !!!
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Moses chose to suffer affliction rather than to enjoy the pleasure of sin for a season ...
Hebrews 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Do you know who taught Moses about God? His mother!!!
Exodus 2:1-10 And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi. And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months. And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink. And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him. And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river's side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it. 6 And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children. Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother. And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed it. And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
I love God's Word !!!
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Did Moses "choose" by God's grace or without it? Was Moses a God-fearer or a God-hater?
no one disputes the fact that God reaches out to mankind before mankind can respond.
What is in dispute is the response of mankind ...
under your doctrine, God only "draws" certain folks who God then causes to believe ... those who reject? ... God never did and God never will reach out to them ... although how they can reject remains a mystery of your doctrine if God never did and never will reach out ... just sayin'.
under what you term "FWer" or "free will" or "pelagian heretic" ... or whatever nomenclature you come up with ... God reaches out to all mankind and folks can either receive the drawing of God's lovingkindness ... or folks can suppress the truth in unrighteousness and reject the drawing of God's lovingkindness ... those who do not reject receive the blessing of God's promise ... those who reject receive the consequence.
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So then you are saying that your "pre-birth sovereign lottery" soteriology also applies to Moses?
A simple yes or no reply will suffice.
I suppose if we got into details re: His image & likeness we could make your view less broad.
I don't really have a final view. There are several of them in theologies. I find it difficult to go along with man's spirit died, which I was taught, since there are so many verses that speak of man's spirit seemingly remaining an issue and verses like Gen5:3 in regard to Adam parenting a son in his image and likeness (IOW whatever Adam's spirit is procreation could well be passing it on). Some say the human spirit was damaged. Some say the issue is separation. Some split image and likeness and say different things about each. As I said above re: God's image and likeness, I'd have to see this refined based upon Scripture like James3:9 which does only speak of likeness but such things at times just point us back to the whole statement in the Hebrew Scriptures.
more scratching where there is no itch ... try reading Scripture and just believe what is written without sifting Scripture through the sieve of whatever dogma you hold to ...
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
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There we have it, folks, right from the horse's mouth. Salvation at the end of the day is all about Mankind and his response.
And for your info, those who reject do so because God rejected them. Conversely, those who accept do do because God accepted them before the beginning of time. How the dead unbelievers reject is due to lack of spiritual life within them. God is dead to the dead! Simple concept to understand...
Not only that, by doing so it is clear that his family HELD ON to the promises given to Abraham by FAITH. This as a result of their desire, their volition, their WILLFUL INTENTION.Moses chose to suffer affliction rather than to enjoy the pleasure of sin for a season ...
Hebrews 11:24-27 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Do you know who taught Moses about God? His mother!!!
Exodus 2:1-10 And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi. And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months. And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink. And his sister stood afar off, to wit what would be done to him. And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river's side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it. 6 And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children. Then said his sister to Pharaoh's daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the maid went and called the child's mother. And Pharaoh's daughter said unto her, Take this child away, and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages. And the woman took the child, and nursed it. And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
I love God's Word !!!
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In other words they WILLED to do God's WILL. Their wills aligned to this purpose. By which great things happened. Without which NONE of it would have.
Actually, 'can't prove a negative' is often put forth when someone wants to dodge responsibility or shift the burden of proof, which you ended up with in the chain. And only certain negatives are hard or basically impossible to prove.
For example:
'You are not polite to your opponents on this forum.' - This is a simple negative easy to prove with several of your posts, including this one.
'Since when have you shown respect to your opponents on this forum?' - This is a negative with a positive inference similar to the one you first made in this chain and also easy to provide evidence for, with your many posts.
Adding an ad-hominem doesn't fix your flawed original claim or your erroneous argument about negatives.
We're going through all of this for "most likely dismissive"?