Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="cv5, post: 5558626, member: 27764Zecharias and Elizabeth. Simeon. Anna. Daniel. David's mighty men. The Gibeonites. Rahab. Ruth. Tons of other faithful OT saints who don't kowtow to your canned ossified erroneous notions of "natural man". In fact they are stark examples to the contrary.

[1Co 2:12 KJV] 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

As did they all. And so can anyone else.

Unless you willfully resist God's Word and commands ....like Pharaoh.
And in so doing bring judgement upon yourself. [/QUOTE]

And those OT saints did all of that apart from God's grace, right? Or did they receive the "spirit which is of God" that empowered them to believe? And one more question: Do you suppose that any of the above mentioned OT saints were not God-fearers?

 

[Rufus]

It says we are not saved by works.
What means, Works?

We need to know what that word meant when written.

Remember there were people asking Jesus what must they do to inherit eternal life?
They were seeking a new work to do to gain eternal life.
Jesus was seen as a rabbi with disciples and wished to know what this rabbi would prescribe.

Works was a system devised by religious men, designed to have men do them, as to gain the approval of God by what they do.

Yet? Works when in God's way?
Works are good.

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, ​

which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:10​

Now...

There is one single work.
One work that God approves of as one walking through an open door into God's realm of salvation.

That one work is?

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
(they were asking Jesus that as the typical disciple would ask his rabbi)

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:28-29​

One work required by God. To believe!

If we keep failing to understand the meaning of words and how they were used at the time of writing?
We will continue to be a body that is divided in mind.

Oh that's easy. It means we can't carry any loads on the Sabbath.

 

[Rufus]

How can you read the verse and accept that suffering is given but not also believing?

Great Point, Cam! If God's work in decreeing suffering is efficacious, then how can His salvific work not also be efficacious? I made a similar argument from an OT passage a few weeks ago that dealt with God's efficacious work in the natural realm and the passage also spoke of his spiritual work.

 

[Magenta]

The verse originally under consideration dealt with faith accompanying salvation. You said some refuse the faith that is given in salvation. So I asked where in scripture you find someone refusing the gift of faith given in salvation. You share a verse that isn't talking about faith as a means to salvation, but one wherein faith means a set of beliefs. The verse you chose doesn't deal with saving faith. So I asked do you know of any verses that deal with someone refusing the gift of faith that brings salvation. So, do you?

Jesus said that those given to Him by God will come to Him...

There were no ifs, ands or buts in the statement.

Nor any, unless they decide not to.

 

[Rufus]

You are avoiding the question. How can suffering be given but not believing? You assent that suffering is given, but the verse clearly teaches both are given. Why do you assent to one but not the other?

Because "the other" is a very inconvenient truth to Kroogz that he'd rather bury deep in the ground.

 

[Rufus]

Jesus said that those given to Him by God come to Him...

There were no ifs, ands or buts in the statement.

Exactly! All those statements in Jn 6 are unqualified!

 

[Magenta]

Because "the other" is a very inconvenient truth to Kroogz that he'd rather bury deep in the ground.

So odd and actually bordering on bizarre but I've seen it again and again from these free will folks, where immediately after being enabled is mentioned they straight off jump to being forced.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The verse originally under consideration dealt with faith accompanying salvation.

the verse originally under consideration is Philippians 1:29 and ... it has already been established that the Philippian believers to whom the verse was addressed were already born again ...

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons

Paul wrote to the saints in Christ Jesus ... these are born again believers.


Philippians 1:3-6 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Paul prayed for their fellowship in the gospel ... unbelievers do not fellowship in the gospel ...


Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

unbelievers are not filled with the fruits of righteousness


Philippians 1:27-28 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

unbelievers do not stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel


Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake


How many times must a person be born again before he or she is really, really, really, truly, scouts honor born again?
.

 

[Kroogz]

You said some refuse the faith that is given in salvation.

You have the Calvinist interpretation of the verse and can see no other possibility.

Given~~Is "graciously granted" in the Greek.

The plan of salvation for mankind is "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..."....If He didn't graciously grant us the ability to believe......none could follow His plan.

Graciously granted our belief, doesn't mean He zapped us into belief. Everyone who has ever lived and believed is graciously granted belief.........It's not limited to a select few. It is for ALL.

 

[Rufus]

God saves your soul.

For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned ​

to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Peter 2:25​

​

Note.

It does not say...

For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned ​

to the Shepherd and Overseer of your bodies."​

It was the flesh with it's dominance over our souls that made our souls unable to function righteously.

Take away the flesh?
And, gve you a sinless body?

What would you get? Garbage?

​

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. ​

They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. " Galatians 5:17 ​

To say your soul is worthless?
Is to say Christ was a fool to die on the Cross.

You Calvinists have a serious mental block.
You just can not put it together.

The preaching you must have heard telling you what a piece of crap we all are, appealed to you.
For it removed the feelings of guilt you had about yourself....

God loves your soul.
God does not love crap.
You say He does.
Total depravity would by default, mean that you soul was beyond redemption.

......

But Jesus made it abundantly clear in all three Synoptics that "What's impossible with man is possible with God". You clearly are rejecting the attribute of God's omnipotence. And I'm not surprised since your version of God is microscopically small.

Smooth move, Mr. Ex Lax.

 

[Kroogz]

So odd and actually bordering on bizarre but I've seen it again and again from these free will folks, where immediately after being enabled is mentioned they straight off jump to being forced.

Nonsense.

The Holy Spirit will convict the world. He enables all to make a clear and informed choice. Some will reject it sadly.

 

[Rufus]

You have the Calvinist interpretation of the verse and can see no other possibility.

Given~~Is "graciously granted" in the Greek.

The plan of salvation for mankind is "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..."....If He didn't graciously grant us the ability to believe......none could follow His plan.

Graciously granted our belief, doesn't mean He zapped us into belief. Everyone who has ever lived and believed is graciously granted belief.........It's not limited to a select few. It is for ALL.

Prove what I bolded from scripture.

 

[Blain]

It is out of man's nature that he makes choices ... and the free will proponents assert that the wicked heart of the natural man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend while hostile in his mind toward God Whom he hates as a child of wrath. That unregenerated person is opposed to the spiritual things of God and hears the gospel as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit. But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, all in favor of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said, including Jesus saying salvation is not possible with man. Scripture plainly articulates that salvation is by the desire and will of God and NOT by the will desire or effort of man. In fact the free will proponents regularly and routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated. So it is not just a matter of a mere difference of opinion, it is how much and how many verses the free will crowd rejects, contradicts, denies, and even rewrites to suit their heresy.

If in fact free will does exist it should have some kind of impact on our salvation and the thing is there is a difference between having choice and having free will to salvation

 

[Rufus]

So odd and actually bordering on bizarre but I've seen it again and again from these free will folks, where immediately after being enabled is mentioned they straight off jump to being forced.

Because of their blindness they cannot see themselves as God sees all of us.

 

[Cameron143]

the verse originally under consideration is Philippians 1:29 and ... it has already been established that the Philippian believers to whom the verse was addressed were already born again ...

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons

Paul wrote to the saints in Christ Jesus ... these are born again believers.


Philippians 1:3-6 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Paul prayed for their fellowship in the gospel ... unbelievers do not fellowship in the gospel ...


Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

unbelievers are not filled with the fruits of righteousness


Philippians 1:27-28 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

unbelievers do not stand fast in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel


Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake


How many times must a person be born again before he or she is really, really, really, truly, scouts honor born again?
.

Once. As I said earlier, the verse isn't talking about them getting saved in the time of his writing, but about what had already occurred. If it is speaking about salvation at that point, it would also be speaking of suffering in that moment but not previously. Do you believe the Christians being addressed had not suffered already? Two verses earlier he tells them not to fear their enemies. Do you not believe they were already being persecuted? Further, Paul is exhorting them to live godly lives. From 2 Timothy 3:12 we know those who live godly will suffer persecution.

 

[Cameron143]

You have the Calvinist interpretation of the verse and can see no other possibility.

Given~~Is "graciously granted" in the Greek.

The plan of salvation for mankind is "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..."....If He didn't graciously grant us the ability to believe......none could follow His plan.

Graciously granted our belief, doesn't mean He zapped us into belief. Everyone who has ever lived and believed is graciously granted belief.........It's not limited to a select few. It is for ALL.

It doesn't say we are granted the ability. It says it is given us to believe. It isn't that belief is made possible, but is actually present.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you believe it was given unto Abraham to believe? That is, the source of His belief was the Spirit?

I believe Scripture ... God spoke to Abraham and Abraham believed God ...

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

In our day and time, faithful believers speak God's Word and the person to whom God's Word is spoken either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and does not believe.
.

 

[Magenta]

If in fact free will does exist it should have some kind of impact on our salvation and the thing is there is a difference between having choice and having free will to salvation

You need to make up your mind whether you're going to believe what the Bible says about the unregenerated man or if you're going to believe some man-made tradition that exalts the self over glorifying God. According to Scripture man is a slave either to sin or to righteousness ... there is no third option. Flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death. Free will proponents contradict that.

 

[Jackson129]

Jesus asks us to go to the nations and preach the gospel because "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

So why would the chosen have to hear anything? They are saved wether they know it or not.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe Scripture ... God spoke to Abraham and Abraham believed God ...

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

In our day and time, faithful believers speak God's Word and the person to whom God's Word is spoken either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness and does not believe.
.

You didn't answer my question. Was the cause of belief because it was given him to believe? Was the source of belief the Spirit?