Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

Try convincing the townsfolk of Sodom and Gomorrah that God loved and prays for them.

One poster told me that God casting individuals into the Lake of Fire was a demonstration of His love towards those individuals.

 

[cv5]

No. The spiritually dead - and everyone is spiritually dead before becoming saved/born again- cannot believe the truth. True belief accompanies spiritual life not spiritual death, but life is only given by God, not by man. Observe in the verses following, those in them played no part whatsoever in the receiving of spiritual life: they were dead in sin, but God, by His grace and mercy alone, gave them spiritual life, period. They contributed nothing whatsoever to it - solely being recipients. The spiritually dead, being spiritually dead - just as physically dead are physically dead- cannot give anything to themselves - therefore, the dead are completely at God's mercy for life, utterly unable to give it to themselves. And as dead, neither can they give to themselves true faith nor belief.
But He does give them freely to those chosen from before the foundation of the world.

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you[hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with[G4862] him, having forgiven you all trespasses

I count "dead" or "death" being used 13 times in this post. Well at least you use the term "cannot" only twice.

Roger and Rufus both love that term "cannot". Cannot hear cannot see cannot have faith cannot believe. It's a long list.......

 

[Jackson129]

Try convincing the townsfolk of Sodom and Gomorrah that God loved and prays for them.

Try sticking to the same testiment. Old and new, judgment was past in differnt ways.

 

[Jackson129]

I see. From this verse alone, we can only speculate at the meaning. We would need to look at the particular words used, see how they are used elsewhere in scripture, and consider what the Bible teaches on the whole throughout.

So what group was being referenced here? The whole world ? Only jews? Only Gentiles?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He didn't advocate for the Pharisees. He didn't share the gospel.

you don't believe the Lord Jesus Christ preached the gospel to the pharisees? ... Jesus told the pharisees Who He was and they did not believe Him.

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

The fact that the pharisees did not believe does not negate the fact that Jesus did "advocate for the pharisees".

Spoke in parables because they could not understand.

have you ever studied the parables the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the pharisees and they did understand ?

He wasn't their Savior.

rolleyes ... the rejection by the pharisees does not mean the Lord Jesus Christ was not their Savior. There is no other Savior ...

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Guess all doesn't actually include all humanity.

you "guess" incorrectly ... there is only One Who can save mankind ... that man chooses to reject does not mean the Lord Jesus Christ was not their savior ...
.

 

[Cameron143]

So what group was being referenced here? The whole world ? Only jews? Only Gentiles?

If you do as I suggested, you will find it is talking about individuals out of every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue, referenced in Revelation 7:9 and 14:6. In other words, it is not speaking of all of humanity, but people out of all of humanity.

 

[Jackson129]

If you do as I suggested, you will find it is talking about individuals out of every nation, tribe, kindred, and tongue, referenced in Revelation 7:9 and 14:6. In other words, it is not speaking of all of humanity, but people out of all of humanity.

So why the difference? Those two verses both say every tribe nation kindred and tongue. The verse i quoted says world.

Why would the verse I quoted not say.. behold the lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of individuals from every tribe nation kindred and tongue?

 

[lrs68]

That is correct! And, their reasoning is not something that can be turned on like a light switch. It takes the enabling work of the Spirit to cause such a change..

Now I want you to understand that my interpretation of free will doesn't include choosing a salad or french fries with my meal or choosing one shoe brand over another. It involves the point at which God makes a person understand who He is and why they need Him but they choose not to accept this knowledge and ultimately reject God. The other side to that scenario is they yield themselves to God.

The Disciples [Judas excluded] were saved the moment they followed Jesus when He would say to them follow me. But even though they were saved they wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit until later.

Same thing happens many times with current or future Believers.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So what group was being referenced here? The whole world ? Only jews? Only Gentiles?

John was in Bethabara beyond Jordan (John 1:28) ... the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him (John 1:19) ... they which were sent were of the Pharisees (John 1:24). According to Matt 3:7 many pharisees and sadducees were present.

The next day Jesus was baptized and the voice from heaven ...

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
.

 

[Mem]

The Son is the image of the invisible God because he is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit, which means the the Father resides in the Son and tells him what to do and say. In Genesis, when God said let us make man in our own image, he didn't mean physical image. And, He didn't mean just at the time of creation of man, but throughout the history of manking. We are in the image of God when He resides in our being to direct our thoughts, hearts, motivation, and actions.

And we (deface) the image of God when we behave otherwise contrarily to His direction.

 

[Cameron143]

you don't believe the Lord Jesus Christ preached the gospel to the pharisees? ... Jesus told the pharisees Who He was and they did not believe Him.

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

The fact that the pharisees did not believe does not negate the fact that Jesus did "advocate for the pharisees".





have you ever studied the parables the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the pharisees and they did understand ?





rolleyes ... the rejection by the pharisees does not mean the Lord Jesus Christ was not their Savior. There is no other Savior ...

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.





you "guess" incorrectly ... there is only One Who can save mankind ... that man chooses to reject does not mean the Lord Jesus Christ was not their savior ...
.

I don't mean this rudely, but it's useless to have a discussion with someone who believes things that are contrary to scripture. Every point you made was wrong. For example, Jesus did not save most of the Pharisees. So to say that He is their Savior is ridiculous if they aren't actually saved. That He is the only possible Savior doesn't make Him their Savior.
I could do the same with your 3 other points, but you won't accept what I tell you so I'll just bid you grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

So why the difference? Those two verses both say every tribe nation kindred and tongue. The verse i quoted says world.

Why would the verse I quoted not say.. behold the lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of individuals from every tribe nation kindred and tongue?

Because God chose to write the Bible in such a way as to require His help in understanding it.
God is interested in relationship with His children.
See Proverbs 25:2.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Now I want you to understand that my interpretation of free will doesn't include choosing a salad or french fries with my meal or choosing one shoe brand over another. It involves the point at which God makes a person understand who He is and why they need Him but they choose not to accept this knowledge and ultimately reject God. The other side to that scenario is they yield themselves to God.

Some folks prefer not to include Romans 1:16-17 in their reading of Romans 1:18-32 ... makes no sense to rip what's in 16-17 from what's in 18-32 unless your agenda is to enforce/teach unbelief.
.

 

[Jackson129]

Because God chose to write the Bible in such a way as to require His help in understanding it.
God is interested in relationship with His children.
See Proverbs 25:2.

Then why do people see it differently?
Take Calvin and Wesley for example 10s of millions still follow thier teachings today but they are very differnt. I know there are saved people who follow both

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I don't mean this rudely, but it's useless to have a discussion with someone who believes things that are contrary to scripture.

not contrary to Scripture ... contrary to your dogma.

Every point you made was wrong. For example, Jesus did not save most of the Pharisees. So to say that He is their Savior is ridiculous if they aren't actually saved.

You closing your eyes to the fact that He is the only One Who brings salvation is what is "wrong" and "ridiculous".

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World ... whether you believe it or not ...

That He is the only possible Savior doesn't make Him their Savior.

there is no other Savior.
.

 

[Kroogz]

Always the appeal to emotionalism.

Not quite. Always an appeal of equal privilege and equal opportunity .

To ALL who can read this...... The Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins. You are a sinner in need of salvation...... The Lord Jesus Christ died for you and He asks that you trust in Him for your salvation..

The emotional and "lottery winners for salvation" will say, "Hey don't believe that! The Lord Jesus Christ only died for me and my loved ones!"

 

[Cameron143]

Then why do people see it differently?
Take Calvin and Wesley for example 10s of millions still follow thier teachings today but they are very differnt. I know there are saved people who follow both

There are lots of reasons. Some is due to what people have been taught by respected parents and teachers, and it's difficult to unseat long held beliefs. Others hold some false understandings of God and refuse adapt their understanding to scripture. Others simply aren't saved and do not receive revelation from God. And there are many more reasons why.

To be fair, we all have some doctrine in error. We all have some preconceptions and misunderstanding.

 

[Jackson129]

Because God chose to write the Bible in such a way as to require His help in understanding it.
God is interested in relationship with His children.
See Proverbs 25:2.

I was just reading 1 Corinthians 3. Verses 1 through 4. Kind of goes to this thread as I see it.

For ye are yet carnal:for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not yet carnal, and walk.as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul, and another, I am of apollos ; are ye not carnal?

 

[Cameron143]

not contrary to Scripture ... contrary to your dogma.





You closing your eyes to the fact that He is the only One Who brings salvation is what is "wrong" and "ridiculous".

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World ... whether you believe it or not ...





there is no other Savior.
.

Thanks for making the point I made in the last post. Grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

Not quite. Always an appeal of equal privilege and equal opportunity .

To ALL who can read this...... The Lord Jesus Christ died for your sins. You are a sinner in need of salvation...... The Lord Jesus Christ died for you and He asks that you trust in Him for your salvation..

The emotional and "lottery winners for salvation" will say, "Hey don't believe that! The Lord Jesus Christ only died for me and my loved ones!"

Why do you lie?