Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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That means God screwed up, and everything now is a cover up, like the fake news does.
Already answered with Romans 1 v 21 which was part of your original post (is that why you
deleted it???)_... For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave
thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Man is without excuse. Why do people question this? Bizarre.
That really is all they have, over and over again.
I think there is a lot of desperation and despair.
Romans 1:21 states: "For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts."
The bizzare part is because Calvinists present a logic that says the ones in Romans 1:21 had to be regenerated to have such a rejection to begin with.
God allows them to stay around to give us something to challenge our thinking to keep growing more in grace and knowledge.
It is a Romans 8:28 matter.
Exactly right!
And once again CONTEXT is totally ignored in the passage.
John 17:20-23
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
NIV
Jesus in a real sense did pray for the world -- but not the world as FWers understand it! He prayed for the Gentiles who would be evangelized by the Jews and come to believe in him.
1. "Their message" = the gospel initially spread by Jewish believers obeying the Great Commission.
2. "Those who will believe" = Gentiles ("other sheep not of this fold", cf. Jn 10) scattered throughout the world.
3. Both Jewish and Gentiles believers are "in" but not "of" the world, anymore than Jesus was (v. 16).
4. "The world" in v.23 = the world of unbelievers who would learn about Christ by Christian testimony.
5. This world of unbelievers will learn that God had loved BELIEVERS, i.e. "loved THEM" - the same "them" as in v.21
6. The world of unbelievers = those OF this world. These are the devil's children for whom Christ did not pray.
Therefore, God "had loved" both Jewish and Gentile believers who were, are and will be *IN* the world but not *OF* it. Jesus does not say that the Father "sent me and have loved the world even as you have loved me". Therefore, "world" throughout Jn 17 is used in a qualified or limited sense to refer to believers "in" the world as one group, and unbelievers who "of" the world as the second group.
What is your take on v. 23 in the context of the chapter and the larger context of John's entire Gospel?
Are you trying to tell us you know that an entire continent went to hell before acts 19? And you call us man exaulting?
God declares himself in creation to those who haven't heard the word of God yet.
Exactly right!
And once again CONTEXT is totally ignored in the passage.
John 17:20-23
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
NIV
Jesus in a real sense did pray for the world -- but not the world as FWers understand it! He prayed for the Gentiles who would be evangelized by the Jews and come to believe in him.
1. "Their message" = the gospel initially spread by Jewish believers obeying the Great Commission.
2. "Those who will believe" = Gentiles ("other sheep not of this fold", cf. Jn 10) scattered throughout the world.
3. Both Jewish and Gentiles believers are "in" but not "of" the world, anymore than Jesus was (v. 16).
4. "The world" in v.23 = the world of unbelievers who would learn about Christ by Christian testimony.
5. This world of unbelievers will learn that God had loved BELIEVERS, i.e. "loved THEM" - the same "them" as in v.21
6. The world of unbelievers = those OF this world. These are the devil's children for whom Christ did not pray.
Therefore, God "had loved" both Jewish and Gentile believers who were, are and will be *IN* the world but not *OF* it. Jesus does not say that the Father "sent me and have loved the world even as you have loved me". Therefore, "world" throughout Jn 17 is used in a qualified or limited sense to refer to believers "in" the world as one group, and unbelievers who "of" the world as the second group.
What is your take on v. 23 in the context of the chapter and the larger context of John's entire Gospel?
You keep plastering up lists of data to make it look like you know something.
Yet? Its always "so what?" stuff.
I do not think they concern themselves too much with harming the Gospel or being a good witness, they do fervently proselytize but they are willing to be poor witnesses because in their mind "god's pre-selected" is set and cannot changed by how they behave.
Again it is a reputation they have.
Shirley U. Jest! Since "by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many", then how can you FWers claim that God's grace abounds to all mankind w/o exception? How often have you guys claimed that God gives grace to everyone to set mankind free to make a choice about the gospel message? How come the text doesn't say "abound to all"?
My "lists of data" beats your method of eisegesis any day. At least I strive to remain true to God's Word. All you want to do is pervert it, corrupt it and pollute it with your man-exalting, man-centered, man-glorifying theology.