Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

It doesn't because the question was "why does God choose". All you did was show what He chooses based on a promise He made to the saved. Election comes after salvation.

Election was before the foundation of the world.

 

[Rufus]

David was praying for his son's physical life, and while God did not spare his son, God did reveal to David that his son was saved. Which is the greater? And knowing that salvation is the highest good for anyone, why would you not ask God to intervene? You would ask God to intervene for something that will perish, but not ask God to intervene for another's soul? I'll never understand that line of reasoning. Man's will is more sacrosanct than his soul?

FWT is beyond twisted and perverted. It's a man-made tradition spawned from hell!

 

[NightTwister]

I don't think I'll waste my time with your assessment of what's logical and what's not.

 

[Genez]

Their works are their sins. Jesus saves His people from their sins. I believe you are making a distinction without a difference.

That was really twisting it. Ouch!

Why do you think it says?
We are saved by grace -NOT OF WORKS -so nobody can boast?
Did anyone think they could be saved by their sins???????

You really stretched that one out till it snapped.

Please, desist.
I hate seeing some believer make a fool of himself.

Men wish to think that doing good deeds/works will gain them God's acceptance.
Their works will be searched to show them that no work they did would be good enough to save them.

 

[Cameron143]

That was really twisting it. Ouch!

Why do you think it says?
We are saved by grace -NOT OF WORKS -so nobody can boast?
Did anyone think they could be saved by their sins???????

You really stretched that one out till it snapped.

Please, desist.
I hate seeing some believer make a fool of himself.

Men wish to think that doing good deeds/works will gain them God's acceptance.
Their works will be searched to show them that no work they did would be good enough to save them.

And here I was thinking it was you who was swallowing camels.

 

[Genez]

Election was before the foundation of the world.

Right.

God chose (elected) only some to be the Bride of Christ.
Some to be the eternal people of Israel on the new earth.
And, some to be eternally saved gentiles who are to live on the new earth.

God sorted that all out before putting the earth in place.

 

[Rufus]

Election was before the foundation of the world.

AND...the grace of God was given to His elect before the beginning of time!

 

[Genez]

And here I was thinking it was you who was swallowing camels.

Back in the day we used to smoke them.

Now, if they were the candy kind?
Then we would swallow them!

Why bring that up?

 

[rogerg]

How does any of that relate to the people who would be known as the nation of Israel and being freed from Egypt have to do with God's purpose for my individual salvation?

Context is everything. Go back and see what the context of the discussion was.

First, don't give me orders.
Second, the verse from Deut. was incomplete when given at the time - it serving as a picture of the NT verses that would occur later to complete the doctrine - the Bible was written that way. Contrary to your conclusion, they do pertain to individual salvation, which is why I posted them. You apparently were unable to understand that. Thought you would make the connection - guess I gave you too much credit.

 

[Rufus]

Well, you have a few of the 49 or so times the Hebrew word is used and a few of the 158 or so times the Greek word is used.

The worker in the Text knows there is a lot of work to do in defining and interpreting in context all uses before he decides what you're [very prematurely] deciding. Try Matt9:38 and Mark1:11-12, any anger there? Context, Rufus, context...

In context, I can tell you that some not only do not see anger in Gen3 but compassion from God in such things as clothing Adam and the woman and in foretelling of their and our Savior.

Deflection, deflection, deflection. That's all you've got?

Moreover, I wasn't discussing ALL of Gen 3 but I focused specifically on Gen 3:24 and a particular KEY word in the text that is translated "drove THE MAN out". Have you not been able to find any uses for the term "drive" (or any of its variations) with respect to God's saints!? Has God ever driven out any true saint from his Holy Presence?

Also, the skins given to A&E do NOT tell the full story! That only tells God's side and what He provided. What about A&E's side and their response to his provision? Salvation is two-sided coin: A Divine Provision AND and a Human Response to that remedy. Why do you assume that Adam exercised faith and repentance? Where is the biblical evidence?

And since you brought Eve into the picture, didn't both our first parents sin? Why did God omit Eve from His expressive sentiments in v.24? How did Eve get a full pass -- a free "get-out-of-jail" card? Was Eve's sin less egregious than Adam's? (A serious question designed to stoke your boiler for an intelligent answer.) Why wasn't God as angry with her, as the text implies He was with Adam? (Hint: There are reasonable and plausible answers in scripture!)

But get back to me when you find a text wherein God drove out/cast out/thrust away any pious, God-fearing believer from his Presence. As for me: I don't build doctrine on a single unprecedented act -- just like you I don't build doctrine on a single text of scripture.

 

[Rufus]

No unbeliever will be condemned by any sin that Jesus already bore the punishment for.

Now we have a novel, new doctrine: Jesus Christ is only a partial savior for unbelievers.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If God accepted Jesus blood for the remission of every sin ever committed, how then can God require payment for sin that has been paid for?

Atoned [Sin] only applies to someone, something that has Repented and Accepted the (Free Gift) offered by God.

Those in Hell can be explained in Romans 1 [(they rejected God)].

In agreement, lrs68.

Cameron143, God does not require "payment for sin that has been paid for". God beseeches all to be reconciled to Him through the Lord Jesus Christ (through Whom God was reconciling the world to Himself).

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The word "reconciling" in 2 Cor 5:19 and the word "reconciled" in 2 Cor 5:20 are translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

2 Cor 5:19 - God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

2 Cor 5:20 - The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes, hence the plea "we pray you, in Christ's stead be ye reconciled ". At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not provided all that is necessary for them to be reconciled, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the reconciliation ... there is no other way.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is reconciliation to God.

If a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... there is no reconciliation with God because the party of the second part is not in agreement with God (the Party of the first part).
.

 

[Genez]

First, don't give me orders.
Second, the verse from Deut. was incomplete when given at the time - it serving as a picture of the NT verses that would occur later to complete the doctrine - the Bible was written that way. Contrary to your conclusion, they do pertain to individual salvation, which is why I posted them. You apparently were unable to understand that. Thought you would make the connection - guess I gave you too much credit.

Someone who is secure in what he believes does not sound hostile and defensive like you just did...

Just in case you did not know that.

 

[Cameron143]

In agreement, lrs68.

Cameron143, God does not require "payment for sin that has been paid for". God beseeches all to be reconciled to Him through the Lord Jesus Christ (through Whom God was reconciling the world to Himself).

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The word "reconciling" in 2 Cor 5:19 and the word "reconciled" in 2 Cor 5:20 are translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

2 Cor 5:19 - God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

2 Cor 5:20 - The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes, hence the plea "we pray you, in Christ's stead be ye reconciled ". At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not provided all that is necessary for them to be reconciled, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the reconciliation ... there is no other way.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is reconciliation to God.

If a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... there is no reconciliation with God because the party of the second part is not in agreement with God (the Party of the first part).
.

This doesn't answer the question: on what basis does God punish unbelievers if their sins are paid for and He has accepted the payment?

 

[cv5]

Doesn't matter. If the debt is erased, there is no action to be taken by God. He has already accepted payment. Legally, according to your view, they are no longer under any sanction.

Yes...it does matter. According to the verse provided it does. And multitudes of like kind.

If you CHOOSE to devise a different plan of salvation or write your own version of the Bible, you would not be the first.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes...it does matter. According to the verse provided it does. And multitudes of like kind.

If you CHOOSE to devise a different plan of salvation or write your own version of the Bible, you would not be the first.

So God remains just by accepting payment for everyone's sins, but then reneges on the deal for some by still punishing them? That doesn't fit any definition of justice I've ever seen.

 

[cv5]

If the price asked was met and accepted, there is atonement.

You owe $100. I go and pay your debt. The bank accepts the payment for your debt. Are you still in debt?

Aahhhhh but the Pardon and the Acquittal was NOT accepted. So the court has no choice but to render judgement.

Rightly understanding the legal device structure is CRITICAL. It's NOT only about payment of sins. It's also a matter of acquittal predicated upon a legal settlement agreed on by the Trinity.

And we are done here.

 

[cv5]

So God remains just by accepting payment for everyone's sins, but then reneges on the deal for some by still punishing them? That doesn't fit any definition of justice I've ever seen.

Evidently you failed your bar exam.

 

[rogerg]

Someone who is secure in what he believes does not sound hostile and defensive like you just did...

Just in case you did not know that.

Thank you for the analysis, doctor. You see it all began back when I was a very young poster - just a baby really. My parents used to make me sit read mean posts over and over again, night and day, to toughen me up- kind of like Marine Corps boot camp but for young posters in training. Well, over time, it just made me crazy, and I guess I've never fully recovered from it even to this day.
How much for this session, doctor, and when can we meet again?

 

[Cameron143]

Aahhhhh but the Pardon and the Acquittal was NOT accepted. So the court has no choice but to render judgement.

Rightly understanding the legal device structure is CRITICAL. It's NOT only about payment of sins. It's also a matter of acquittal predicated upon a legal settlement agreed on by the Trinity.

And we are done here.

God didn't accept Jesus' payment for everyone? This is a new position for you. Glad you are coming around. You just may get there.