Two Natures???
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it doesn't contradict Paul, naturally.
given how he describes the natural man and the spiritual man in Romans, when he says sown natural, raised spiritual, a natural body and a spiritual body, does he perhaps mean that in the resurrection there is no more animosity between the flesh and the Spirit? or that there is no more flesh?
i think he means that raised a spiritual man, having a spiritual body, it means the division is done away with - the last enemy to be destroyed is death =]
just an aside,
He became fully man but never ceased being fully God. inasmuch, He cannot be tempted.
instead He was tested in every way we are, and found pure.
in Greek there is one word which can mean either tested or tempted, but English differentiates. because we know God cannot be tempted, we know imo that when we talk about Jesus being tempted, it is a mistranslation - He is tested.
yeah neither was I saying a spirit like in the movies or anything but was talking about glorified spiritual bodies.
I had said that when Jesus was transfigured that was his glorified form they saw for a moment on the Mount
“And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.”
Luke 9:29-32 KJV
And was making the case that we’re going to take that type of form that that is what a spiritual body might look like….
“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
A point about when Jesus was on earth eating fish , he hadn’t ascended and been glorified seated in his throne and sent the spirit yet . he was still with them on earth fourty days . eventually he was taken up to the right hand of God and glorified and remained there. Until he chose Paul and the great light of his glory blinded him and he only heard the voice of the Lord
Remember when Jesus was transfigured ?
“and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.”
Matthew 17:2 KJV
“And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.”
Mark 9:2-3 KJV
He appears in the cloud and Moses and Elijah appear with him in glory and the voice of God declares “ this is my son in whom I am well pleased hear him “
All I was ever saying to begin with was that’s his glorified spiritual form they saw . That Jesus gave them a glimpse of his kingdom that’s “not of this world “ for a moment .
When Jesus was taken to heaven he no longer needed flesh because he wasn’t on earth he ascended into the heavens the spiritual part of creation.
God is a spirit
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24
“Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?”
Hebrews 12:9 KJV
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
John 3:6 KJV
“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
it is sown a natural body;
it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,”
1 Corinthians 15:35-37, 44, 48-51 KJV
I was never saying anything different than what Paul’s saying .
If you notice spiritual beings appear coming from heaven on earth in our form a lot but it’s only because they are on earth that’s not the form of heaven in heaven we’re going to have glorified forms like Christ at the transfiguration or like we see him on the throne in heaven shining with gods glory
at His transfiguration He was revealed as the One in the pillar of cloud, the Shekinah that filled the temple - - also again the visible manifestation of the invisible God. that is exactly why Moses and Elijah are there as witnesses, the only two humans to have ever entered the cloud of glory and seen Who is in it, who could identify Him.
and remember this is before His death and resurrection. it testifies also that He never ceased to be God
will we have His glory? The very same glory of God?
“does he perhaps mean that in the resurrection there is no more animosity between the flesh and the Spirit? “
Not really no in my opinion heres why .
If we read it together ……hes addressing people in the church who are doubting that there is a resurrection of the dead
“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.”
1 Corinthians 15:12-14 KJV
He goes on and on about it
“Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.”
1 Corinthians 15:15 KJV
“For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.”
1 Corinthians 15:16-19
He gets out of the rhetorical question asking right here for a moment to make a strong statement
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ, the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 KJV
See my point is it’s for sure addressing what he says and this part sort of tells us clewrly what he’s saying
Back to proposing questions so he can answer them
“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? ( clearly huh?) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, ( like planting a seed the seed dies and is never seen again but the life came from the seed comes forth and bears great fruits and fulfills the purpose of the seed becoming much more when it’s planted and dies than just a seed in the hand ) but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
…So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.”
1 Corinthians 15:35-37, 42-44 KJV
I’m only taking excerpts brother but it’s really what he’s saying I’m in no way manipulating anything . The whole chapter after verse 12 is Paul’s argument for the resurrection of the dead and this part . To me he makes a really good argument and a clear one
as mem said though it doesn’t tell us what exactly the form is or anything it just tells us it’s not going to be flesh and blood. But a spiritual body coming from the promises of Christ .
If you look at messengers in the ot sent from heaven ….. when they can to earth as messengers tbey appeared as men. Then they just were gone like to another realm of existance hidden from the eyes of flesh . I’m in no way claiming we’re going to be space dust type things floating around lol or ghosts haunting the earth
But eternal Spiritual children of god who is a spirit but became flesh to save us from it
yeah i think all his children will
Have the glory of his son . For sure.
“who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
Philippians 3:21 KJV
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
1 John 3:2 KJV
were gonna realize Jesus is God and we are the children of God. I think we will all reflect gods glory but im
Only sharing my own thoughts
Gods presence at the transfiguration is the voice that comes from heaven like at baptism Peter actually talks about it in an epistle the transfiguration I mean.
“For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory,
This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him on the holy mount.”
2 Peter 1:17-18
gods presence was the voice coming from heaven , same thing at Jesus baptism a voice came from heaven sayong this is my son….Jesus the son who was born is the messiah the son of man promised from early on in scripture he is god manifest in the flesh of mankind then he entered into heaven and was glorified as our mediator and heavenly intercessor with god
yes
He is bodily risen, at least flesh and bone, while there is question about blood. and specifically proved that He is not merely Spirit - - great is the mystery, God became flesh, God does not change.
... and before He appeared on the road to Emmaus, He had ascended to offer His blood in the heavenly temple. physical blood. between the time of Mary thinking He was the gardener and Thomas demanding ((and after 7 days receiving)) proof of literal physical resurrection.
where was His risen physical body when He presented His physical blood in heaven?
He has torn down the separation!
us becoming spirits doesn't quite qualify as "resurrection" - it's what popular culture simply calls death. ghosts.
"it is not yet revealed what we shall be, but we shall be like Him" - - and that's physically raised in exactly the same body from the grave. His was always without sin and corruption, and ours will be transformed to be the exact same
if there is not more physical, no more earth, ((not saying that you are saying this)) then the question rises why He made the physical creation at all, and why He not only creates a new heaven but also a new earth?
I'm really not certain if we're viewing this the same or not, although we are reading the same verses. Let's look at your reference of Jesus' robe that was so white as no fuller on earth could make them white and then compare it to the filthy garments that the Angel of the Lord directed those standing before Him to take off of Joshua and said to Joshua, "Behold, I have removed your iniquity, and I will clothe you with splendid robes (Zech3:4)." Here, while the filth is representative of iniquity, what were Joshua's garments stained with representative of, what of Joshua's is stained with iniquity? And, although Joshua is given splendid robes, are they made of at least a similar material or are they entirely different? Is it the difference between linen and silk, or plastic or rubber maybe? Haa! Ok, that's 'stretching' it a bit. But, my point is, it's still made of some type of cloth. I think that's what you mean, really though?
“He is bodily risen, at least flesh and bone, while there is question about blood.”
yeah I know . But do you agree that Paul isn’t wrong and what he says about our resurrection is clear ?
Jesus had no sin that’s what condemns a person tbier own sin Jesus never commited sin. That’s different from you and me we have commited sin .
“to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
1 Corinthians 5:5 KJV
Jesus had no sin
Did you ever notice when Paul was in prison talking about his desire to die and be with the lord but knew it was more useful for the kingdom to remain in his flesh ? So he is torn between the two wanting to leave his flesh and be with god and staying in his flesh for the benefit of the church ?
“But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.”
Philippians 1:22-24 KJV
a yeah my point about the transfiguration was that it says he was transfigured before them , it says they saw him in his glory , and it says his face shined as the sun that his countenance changed and also that his apparel became bright ….
“and was transfigured before them:
and his face did shine as the sun,
and his raiment was white as the light.”
Matthew 17:2 KJV
“And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered,
and his raiment was white and glistering.
And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.”
Luke 9:29-32 KJV
That’s why I was saying my opinion is that’s Jesus glorofoed body there’s other reasons also but my posts get long
Earlier, I was considering what the significance would be if the possibility is viable that the last Adam (became) "a life-giving spirit" at His advent rather than at His resurrection. And although the event of His resurrection is instrumental in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, that ministry empowers us as children of god and therefore, for the Spirit that now abides in us, might we, also, now be qualified as a 'life-giving spirit'? Jesus ministered life even before His death and resurrection. He healed lepers and the blind, He cast out demons and restored those inhabited with them to a sound mind, and He raised Lazarus from the dead among many other great works. And He also empowered His disciples before and after His death and resurrection.
“Earlier, I was considering what the significance would be if the possibility is viable that the last Adam (became) "a life-giving spirit" at His advent rather than at His resurrection. “
Yeah I think when he was taken up to heaven to be seated on His throne is when he was transfigured at that point he sent the promise of the spirit not at his resurrection but after this happened
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19
i believe he entered heaven into his eternal glory at this point and that’s when the life giving spirit of Christ came forth as he promised
“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
Acts 2:32-33 KJV
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
really it’s gods spirit that was in his sin of course but in order for us to be the children we need the spirit of his son to come to be with our spirit
“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
Romans 8:16 KJV
so remember things like this ?
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”
John 14:10
^^^ that’s what we say about the son who is in us . “ It’s not I who do it but Christ in me “
what I mean is after Jesus ascended to heaven he was glorified as he was beforehand before he became flesh
“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:4-5 KJV
And so at that point we have the life giving spirit of the son
“At that day ye shall know that
I am in my Father,
and ye in me,( son )
and I in you.( holy ghost )
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”
John 14:20-21 KJV
see he’s with us by his spirit
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
Galatians 4:6 KJV
“He became fully man but never ceased being fully God. inasmuch, He cannot be tempted.
instead He was tested in every way we are, and found pure.”
naw I would disagree ot says he was tempted in every way like we are yet was without sin.
even if we say “ Jesus was tested in every way like we are yet was without sin”
It’s still saying he faced the same trial we do in the same ways we do and he overcame it like we didn’t .
this is showing us Jesus struggled with the flesh like we do
“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
Hebrews 5:8-9 KJV
Did you ever notice how Jesus spoke of himself and also seperately of his father in heaven who dwelt in him ? Here’s an example I know he said we are one in another place but this example for what I’m saying , note it .
“For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, ( Jesus the son of man )
but the will of him that sent me.”( God the father )
John 6:38
“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: ( the man )
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.”( God the spirit in him )
John 14:10 KJV
“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
Luke 23:46 KJV
when Jesus became a man , he actually became a man and gods spirit was in him. He is the god who created everything , then he became flesh necame the man that no one else was ( the son ) and after he returned to his eternal glory of god
His time in the flesh is different he became a man made of flesh and blood and faced temptations like we do in the flesh
“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Hebrews 4:15 KJV
See Jesus faced what we do but he overcame and never sinned like we do. He was actually tempted because that’s how temptation comes through our flesh .
When he’s in earth we have to see him as Christ the chosen son of God and not the father in heaven but after he rose he returned to his glory
“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:4-5 KJV
he had a different glory on earth and different role and purpose to be the perfect man and overcome the flesh so he could rise up and be glorified
I’d have to disagree i think he was tempted . But even if we change the word from tempted by the devil …. To tested by the devil it still says he was tempted in the same way we all are and yet he didnt sin
look at his humanity and his submission to God brother even when his flesh was pressed to its limit you Can see the pressure on the man to obey
“saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. ( we can see he’s struggling ) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.”
Luke 22:42-44
I th k we can see that Jesus was overcoming and that it says he was tempted like we are and yet he never sinned like we do and that’s what makes him a worthy high priest and intercessor for man from god
“For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;”
1 Timothy 2:5 KJV
his humanity is really important too jist as his divinity as the creator . his victorious life as a man super important . Just as his eternal glory after he ascended to heaven … the humanity part is for us
love and respect you in every way brother
The natural body, because of sin, contains blood. In the resurrection, our bodies will be flesh and bones, no blood, like the body of our resurrected Saviour.
“The natural body, because of sin, “
jesus didn’t sin . That’s why his body didn’t decay …
weve all sinned that’s why our body dies and decays ….
but Christ did not appear in corruption; He was raised just as He was born, in the flesh - - wholly uncorrupted.
of which angel was it said, that he came in the flesh?
but Christ did, and rose in the flesh. if we believe that His flesh evaporated into nothing when He ascended, that's the same as saying His flesh was a deception.
how was Philip teleported while still in his flesh?
why was Elisha certain that the sons of the prophets would not find Elijah's body?
“but Christ did not appear in corruption; He was raised just as He was born, in the flesh - - wholly uncorrupted. “
brother do you think I’m saying Jesus was corrupted at any time ?
“of which angel was it said, that he came in the flesh?” None
“but Christ did, and rose in the flesh.”
yes lol he came in the flesh and blood born of a virgin woman named Mary and came forth from her womb born a man made of flesh and blood . And yes Jesus body rose up again ……. I’ve never said any different lol
Jesus didn’t sin like we do we die because we sin , our flesh is corrupt because we sin , jesus didn’t sin when he came in the flesh born as a man , of a woman. We have all sinned when we are tempted lol jesus never did
thats the reason he saw no corruption he lived a holy life in the flesh he isn’t under this judgement because he did no sin brother
his body is perfect because he was born and lived a holy life as a man in obedience to god the father
“And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.”
John 8:29 KJV
to be clear I’ve not made the argument Jesus was corrupted ….Ive said we are corrupted in our flesh because we sin when we are tempted
and Jesus the man born of Mary’s flesh and blood …..didn’t sin even though he faced the same feeling and temptations we do
“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Hebrews 4:15 KJV
The reason Jesus could be tempted is because he became flesh he became a man like we are flesh and blood .
and the reason god cannot be tempted is that he is an eternal spirit the father of spirits.
The flesh of mankind is what gets tempted because of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam partook of . Jesus became a son of man , was born of a woman , lived as a babe and toddler and teen and young adult as we do
We do that and sin as we grow up , jesus never sinned doing life like we do . That’s why his body rose bro Thisnos not me saying “ jesus body never rose “ that’s always been my position Jesus rose from the dead his body never saw corruption …. It’s also my position tbat Paul clearly teaches us about our resurrection to come
We sinned our bodies will die and decay Jesus didn’t sin he died for our sins but because he had none of his own he rose up ……
part of the reason he became flesh is so he could be tempted like we are resist and overcome the tempter like we couldn’t do without the gospel and promises it holds like the Holy Ghost promise he made
I feel as if I’ve sort of started my case on the matter and it has good solid scriptural support so I’ll most likely leave it there
“how was Philip teleported while still in his flesh? “
By the spirit it says brother he was an apostle called to miraculous things of gods spirit whisks you away your gone be as whisked as whisked can be
“why was Elisha certain that the sons of the prophets would not find Elijah's body?”
my opinion because it doesn’t really tell us , is that he was translated just like Enoch was and also Jesus was on the Mount and when he ascended into heaven to remain
Enoch’s body was translated and he just was gone it says because god took him ….because he lived a life that pleases god.
Bit that’s the thing if your living in this world you need a body made for it
If your moving into another kingdom in another world you need a body made for that world not this one
our body of flesh is literally made and comprised of this earth and the biological Materials in the ground and rock and water and air . Our new ones won’t be made of this earth