Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

He understands what the gospel is teaching, but he understands it as foolishness. Man hasn't lost his faculties. They have simply been corrupted.

You said God would not be just if the offer of salvation does not go to all. If this is so, God must be obligated in some way to all people. So I asked for scripture where it states that God is under such obligation.
On the other hand, if Jesus paid for the sins of every single individual and God accepted payment for their sins, on what bases does God condemn them? He would be unjust for having accepted payment for their sins and then still demanding payment for them.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He atoned for all the sins in the world in the sence that every person alive just has to ask for forgiveness. Then they are forgiven. We know it dosent happen this way but if every single person repented for thier sins then every person would be saved. Once again we know that dosent happen. Only the believers or the elect reap the benefits to what his death did. But the offer went to all. Otherwise God would not be just.

2 Corinthians 5:19-20 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

The word "reconciling" in 2 Cor 5:19 and the word "reconciled" in 2 Cor 5:20 are translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

2 Cor 5:19 - God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

2 Cor 5:20 - The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes, hence the plea "we pray you, in Christ's stead be ye reconciled ". At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (both God and the person are reconciled ... i.e. Greek katallássō).

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not provided all that is necessary for them to be reconciled, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the reconciliation ... there is no other way.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is reconciliation to God.

If a person rejects the Lord Jesus Christ ... who is the Way, the Truth, the Life ... there is no reconciliation with God because the party of the second part is not in agreement with God (the Party of the first part).
.

 

[Jackson129]

You said God would not be just if the offer of salvation does not go to all. If this is so, God must be obligated in some way to all people. So I asked for scripture where it states that God is under such obligation.
On the other hand, if Jesus paid for the sins of every single individual and God accepted payment for their sins, on what bases does God condemn them? He would be unjust for having accepted payment for their sins and then still demanding payment for them.

Jesus paid for the sins of every single individual. Only those who repent reap the benefit. You have to repent you keep taking that out of the equation with these analogies

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He understands what the gospel is teaching, but he understands it as foolishness. Man hasn't lost his faculties. They have simply been corrupted.

thanks ... that is how I understand it as well ...
.

 

[studier]

whats “dichotomy vs trichotomy. “?

im Lost …I’m sorry im definately not the sharpest tool in the shed . Are you talking about this ?

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;

and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭

Sorry, my fault for the confusion.

I know @Genez understands the topic.

Here's one link that explains.

There is at least one more view on this that I think @Genez holds to.

Really, this is a root of all discussion about what fallen man is able to understand and choose and believe. It's a discussion about the fall of man.

 

[BillyBob]

Ok even the hard core reformers here i have all seen post that when man is in front of God at the great white throne judgment. He will have no excuse.

Jackson,
Those who are in Christ may mourn their sin, but they have already been forgiven.
1) their sins have been nailed to the cross. 2) They bare them no more. 3) Their sins have been cast away as far as the east to the west. 4) They are remembered no more.
If they are remembered no more, 5) they will be found spotless before the Lamb.

It is only those who are not in Christ who will be judged according to evil that they have done. It is those who will be without excuse.
Just my opinion, as always .......

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good math, but the issue is body, spirit & soul vs. body & soul/spirit vs. body & soul (w/o spirit).

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( flesh )

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ( spirit )

and man became a living soul.”( what man is )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭

“But there is a spirit in man: And the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭32:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, Searching all the inward parts of the belly.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭20:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a living spirit in us in our body of flesh and blood. We all are aware we have a body made of h flesh biological earthly material that’s going to die .

But the bible tells us that when a person dies the spirit leaves the body and returns to god where it came from

so creation

“God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( flesh ) “

And when the flesh dies

“Then shall the dust return to the dust as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, ( flesh )

but after this the judgment:”( spirit )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have a body and our living spirit is within it this makes us a living soul but our body will die and our spirit will return to god for judgement of how we lived while in the body

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See if we’re answering for what we did after we’ve already died we all inderersnd our body has to die , then what’s left to be judged but the persons spirit that was in the body ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sorry, my fault for the confusion.

I know @Genez understands the topic.

Here's one link that explains.

There is at least one more view on this that I think @Genez holds to.

Really, this is a root of all discussion about what fallen man is able to understand and choose and believe. It's a discussion about the fall of man.

Thanks for sharing

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus paid for the sins of every single individual. Only those who repent reap the benefit. You have to repent you keep taking that out of the equation with these analogies

If repentance is required for salvation, is salvation still of grace? Repentance is a fruit of salvation, not a requirement. Otherwise, repentance becomes a work.

 

[HeIsHere]

thanks ... that is how I understand it as well ...
.

Do you also believe that in order for a person to believe the Gospel they must have divine, unique, special and personal intervention?

As in regenerated before a person can believe?
That is what Cameron asserts, fyi.

 

[HeIsHere]

Dead to God !

Yes, yes I know, Lazuras, so the Gospel is for the graveyard.

 

[HeIsHere]

If repentance is required for salvation, is salvation still of grace? Repentance is a fruit of salvation, not a requirement. Otherwise, repentance becomes a work.

Repentance is not a work.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jackson,
Those who are in Christ may mourn their sin, but they have already been forgiven.
1) their sins have been nailed to the cross. 2) They bare them no more. 3) Their sins have been cast away as far as the east to the west. 4) They are remembered no more.
If they are remembered no more, 5) they will be found spotless before the Lamb.

It is only those who are not in Christ who will be judged according to evil that they have done. It is those who will be without excuse.
Just my opinion, as always .......

Have you ever read the parable of the unforgiving debtor ? In the teaching the man is totally forgiven up front his debt is completely canceled . But then he goes out and finds another that owes him a very small debt but he won’t forgive the debt as he was forgiven his large debt and has no mercy on the other guy

when the lord hears of it he calls the man who was totally forgiven back and reinstates all his great debt that he couldn’t pay and has him tormented.

jesus ends the teaching with the whole point

“And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:34-35‬ ‭

 

[Jackson129]

If repentance is required for salvation, is salvation still of grace? Repentance is a fruit of salvation, not a requirement. Otherwise, repentance becomes a work.

Of course it is still grace. It is God's grace that sent his son to die for our sins. You would have no one to repent to if it wasent for God's grace.

 

[Magenta]

He understands what the gospel is teaching, but he understands it as foolishness.
Man hasn't lost his faculties. They have simply been corrupted.

I don't think the unbeliever necessarily understands the gospel at all. I mean, Scripture says he cannot receive it, and he is blinded to the truth of it, being under the power and influence of Satan, as is the whole world, which is why we must be called out of the world, to receive and understand. 1 Cor 2:14 also says they cannot understand the spiritual things of God because they are spiritually discerned. Of course the free willing folks rewrite those verses to suit their self-exalting idol, but I believe they mean what they say....

 

[studier]

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( flesh )

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; ( spirit )

and man became a living soul.”( what man is )
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭

“But there is a spirit in man: And the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭32:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, Searching all the inward parts of the belly.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭20:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a living spirit in us in our body of flesh and blood. We all are aware we have a body made of h flesh biological earthly material that’s going to die .

But the bible tells us that when a person dies the spirit leaves the body and returns to god where it came from

so creation

“God formed man of the dust of the ground, ( flesh ) “

And when the flesh dies

“Then shall the dust return to the dust as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, ( flesh )

but after this the judgment:”( spirit )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We have a body and our living spirit is within it this makes us a living soul but our body will die and our spirit will return to god for judgement of how we lived while in the body

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See if we’re answering for what we did after we’ve already died we all inderersnd our body has to die , then what’s left to be judged but the persons spirit that was in the body ?

This is the basics of the trichotomous view body + spirit = soul (from Gen).

If you read @Genez recent post, he understands a different view re: fallen man.

If we were to get into this with most Reformed and we find the traditional Dichotomous view - body + soul/spirit.

When we start breaking this down, for one thing, we discuss what happened at the fall. And, as we move forward we end up in discussions about things like the "natural" man, volition, understanding the Gospel, what the construct "spiritual death" means and includes.

These discussions are all tapping into this and I thought you and @Genez were headed there.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Repentance is not a work.

Naw it’s a sweet gift from above thats preached to all in Jesus name !!!! Along with remission of sins yeee haw !!

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But many refuse to hear that part the “ r “ word

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is the basics of the trichotomous view body + spirit = soul (from Gen).

If you read @Genez recent post, he understands a different view.

If we were to get into this with most Reformed and we find the traditional Dichotomous view - body + soul/spirit.

When we start breaking this down, for one thing, we discuss what happened at the fall. And, as we move forward we end up in discussions about things like the "natural" man, volition, understanding the Gospel, what the construct "spiritual death" means and includes.

These discussions are all tapping into this and I thought you and @Genez were headed there.

Thank you for the clarity that’s appreciated

 

[Cameron143]

Repentance is not a work.

Because it follows belief. You can't repent of something before you believe something else in place of what you formerly believed.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course it is still grace. It is God's grace that sent his son to die for our sins. You would have no one to repent to if it wasent for God's grace.

Appreciate the discussion.
Grace and peace.