You had better put that bug in the ear of your FWT comrades. They clearly think that salvation is all about man's volition, volition, volition.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You had better put that bug in the ear of your FWT comrades. They clearly think that salvation is all about man's volition, volition, volition.
Theyve heard it thier religion requires that they reject it outright all the Islamic people know about Jesus they don’t believe it because they are filled with other doctrines like about “ Muhammad and allah “ so there’s no room for the gospel and infact what they believe requires them to reject it openly and state “ God has no son “ they’ve heard too
he kinda changed the world when he rose up even today anyone alive can find a Bible or read one online or maybe they’re way out and have missionaries preaching ect ect
a there’s even a guy who was killed for trying to preach the gospel to a group of ancient natives disconnected from society in the Asian pacific no one can speak thoer language but this missionary kept going back preaching Jesus to them ….. once they through an arrow hit his Bible then later he went back he was last seen being dragged down the beach dead
the point is gods word is everywhere . But not everyone is willing to listen to his word that’s always been mans issue some listen to God like Noah or Abraham but others reject Gods word like cain ….
even if someone dies and hasn’t heard scripture says the dead will hear the gospel also so they too will be without excuse and can be rightly judged
"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5 verse 13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5 verse 1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6 verses 6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3 verse 17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8 verse 36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.
You say there are no people who haven't heard the gospel. That's simply not true. Lots of people have lived and died without hearing the gospel since the cross.
John 14 v 17a, Romans 8 v 6-9 ~ “Inability” in Bible The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth. The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Praise be to God for calling me out of the world.
@Hevosmies some of our free willers fall into conniptions of condemnation because I praise God for what He did for me...
Truly makes one wonder, I mean, they deride being called out of the world? Are they not???
If they are not, they do not belong to the body of Christ. One found that statement boring.
God's work in our lives is boring to them.
I just break down a bit more,
but does not mean for one second that I agree the bible teaches God goes about picking and choosing some who hear the Gospel and
decides to leave others who hear the Gospel in their sin because they were not on His pre-selection list.
That is completely un-biblical.
and what is really interesting is that God tells us there is one body consisting of many members over which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head:
1 Corinthians 12:12-14 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.
we are the ones who divide up into various denominations in a never-ending quest to maintain divisiveness among the body of believers ... these things ought not so to be.
According to Scripture, God sees people as Jew, gentile, church of God (1 Cor 10:32) ...
Jew = descendants of Israel who are not born again.
gentile = non Jews who are not born again.
church of God = comprised of those who are born again who were formerly considered Jews or gentiles.
yes, churches consist of believers and unbelievers. If what some claim about natural man was true, then no unbelievers would be in a church ... and all those ancient idols (or current idols for that matter) would never have come into existence. I don't believe some have thought through to the end the claim upon which they stand.Jackson129 said:
so true ... the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... simple ... one either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is presented.Jackson129 said:
.
Romans is built from beginning to end on the matter of human belief. It bookends Romans in Rom1:5 and Rom16:5 with Paul's mission for Faith-Obedience in the nations. God chose Jesus before time. He knew men would believe in Jesus and love God. There's no reason to view these verses in Rom in isolation from faith, especially since they are speaking about His Salvation Plan/Purpose Rom8:28.
So, God knew there would be believers. Believers are the "whom" God knew would love Him. There's no reason to make them a "what".
When we speak of God foreknowing each and every believer we get into what foreknowledge means in different interpretive traditions. So, though I may well agree with you re: God foreknowing each and every believer, I suspect we may not agree on what foreknowledge means.
Would you like to explain what you think it means or do the research and explain the different views or at least some of them? Or even explain what your view is or what tradition it compares well to?
yes!!! the Lord Jesus Christ is the Elect ... those who believe the gospel of Christ become elect in Him when the gospel is believed and they are born again ... God chose the Elect before the foundation of the world and the believing ones are holy and blameless before Him in Christ. Christ clothes us in righteousness so we may enter into the presence of God ... the throne of grace where we obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ cannot enter into the presence of God
.
You will notice one tactic employed is putting forth their next proof text and when that is repudiated as a proof text for unconditional election the process always starts all over again.
The tactic is to keep the potential convert on the defensive and wear them down.
Just another friendly reminder.
I refer to it as the merry-go-round. I may be patient but only until I'm not.
You are simply not accounting for the Spirit. The Gospel is restricted to the mouths of men only?
John 16:8
And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous
"my little children" refers to born again believers.
under what authority do you exclude Jews from the "world" in vs 2?
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.Rufus said:
The Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins ... the "my little children" of vs 1 ... the believers ... and not for the sins of the "my little children" only, but also for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.
The reason why not all sins are propitiated:
Propitiation – Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (bold mine):
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." ... What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe.
.
I know that. I guess im asking you what you think happened to the people before Christ and the law?
Right. Your position is you decided to hear and then you were able to believe what had been foolishness
before your decision to hear. Perhaps we are to believe you circumcised your own heart also. I won't.
You put confidence in the flesh and others do too but then deny that is what you/they're doing.
Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.
The naive in this thread can never think beyond the tip of their noses! God who has ordained all ends in eternity also ordained all the secondary causes (means) to those ends. Read the account of Joseph in Genesis some day. Maybe you'll catch on.
You mean a secondary cause like having a will of our own and being able to use it even when it doesn't line up with God's will? Wow, maybe that explains the existence of evil. I find it odd though why it's always solely our will when doing evil but solely God's will when doing good, it's like we all become robots under God's will.
Another bald-faced lie! Where does it say what you allege in Rom 8:28-30? None of my translations say that. Yet, you pride yourself as being a faithful and honest exegetical interpreter, don't you?
Understanding Gospel truth is not difficult because it has moral capacity as well. The spiritual aspect of the Gospel is not truly understood until after we are saved but understanding we have done wrong and that there is a penalty to pay and Christ paid that penalty for us can be understood by "morons". That's how we all got saved in the first place.
The fact they make excuses to not believe shows they understand what is being presented so you are without excuse and not all men react as the Romans 1 type, if they did, no-one would be saved.