Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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Not so...
God someday may tell you He was trying to get your attention about a teacher who can really answer your questions.
I already have such a person in my life. I'm not asking questions of you to learn from you; only to understand your reasoning for your understanding. If you had understanding beyond what I already know, I would gladly learn from you. You don't. Spiritual people are always aspiring to grow in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord. They can also discern who has spiritual insight from those who think they do.
God will save all and everyone whom He knows would believe.
God is not going to save anyone he knows does not want Him.
If God were obligated (in that sense) He would have to save those who go through the motions, yet He knows they do not want to believe.
That is really basic stuff. Yet?
We just do not know what God knows about the person.
That is why it says... in Romans 9:15-16.
For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
Salvation does not depend upon human desire or effort.
You can beg God to save a relative whom you love.
Your desire will not make God save that person if God knows they want no part of Him.
God will have mercy only on those whom He knows would want to know Him.
On the flip side of that coin?
People may desire that God send some evil person to Hell.
But, God will have mercy on him like he did with Paul who was murdering Christians.
[1Jo 3:15 KJV] 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Well then you should know what you were asking can not be answered in a single post.
If you are only seeking my conclusion?
And, it conflicted with yours?
What good is it?
The reasoning for my conclusion remains unknown to you.
Learning nothing that way.
The reasoning for my conclusion is what would require a considerable amount of study.
So the only thing you learn is that my conclusion does not agree with yours.
Nothing gained from that.
[Jhn 7:17 KJV] 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
Why don't we just go outside and settle it like a man?
If I beat you up?
Then I'm right.
(but you learn nothing)
The promise is to God Himself. He made it before time began. Reread the scripture. The only One existing before time was God.
Titus 1:2
in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,
I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish.
That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings
salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile." Romans 1:14-16
That was God the Spirit working through Paul making Paul obligated to preach salvation
But remember whoever Christ intercedes for is saved. And the entire earth isn't saved
There are verses that specifically deny it being about meeting requirements:
Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began.
This is a caricature. The Bible says to teach your son the way he should go. Of course you teach him the Gospel and the law of God.
In both cases I mentioned, belief in God's word is the basis. God has determined that this is to be the situation, neither man nor angel has determined or willed this to be the case. God elects the saved, He does not save the elect.
In the very last verses of the Bible it says if you take away from the sayings and the prophecy of this book I will take you out of the book of life and take away the promises of this book. You cannot be taken out of a book you were never in and you could not have been in that book unless you were of the elect. I know that no man goverment angel demon power or dominion can take you out of that book. However all mighty God who put you in there can take you out. He even gives you a reason why. So there would have to be conditions to your election. Similar to when we have an election and the person we pick does something outrageous and we recall them.
As we know, this part of Romans is a TULIP go to. There seems to be some tension in what you say.
- "Salvation does not depend upon human desire (will) or effort"
- [God won't save that person] "if God knows they want (desire/will??) no part of Him"
- You seem to have made man's want/will/desire what salvation depends upon.
IMO this game of ping-pong keeps missing this:
The concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).
The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.
I had never encountered TULIPists before joining CC, but I am shocked at their blatant disregard for God's omnilove and justness,
which IMO borders on blasphemy--especially because they seem so brain-washed that one wonders if they will ever understand
how TULIP perverts the true Gospel.
Yes, God only marries those who say "I Do".
This after the bride comes to know the Bridegroom and then responds positively by making a FREE WILL marriage commitment.
Consequently the bride earnestly waits in hope (prosdokaō) for the soon coming of the Lord, while remaining chaste.
All the while this process and procedure being predicated upon innumerable FREE WILL decisions.
The KJV translates Strong's G4328 in the following manner: look for (8x), waited for (with G2258) (2x), expect (1x), be in expectation (1x), look (1x), look when (1x), waiting for (1x), tarry (1x).