I'd want to know do they hold a Biblical worldview. Many unsaved people believe in God but not Jesus as their Lord.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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I'd want to know do they hold a Biblical worldview. Many unsaved people believe in God but not Jesus as their Lord.
you got it.
We get saved. Then God turns us from sin.
and unless we are make believers, he has probably a 100% record of doing this
I think the real question is "pistis" a gift in Ephesians 2:8.
In context of scripture "faith" means "belief and acceptance" in/of the Gospel.
By the grace of God, Christ Jesus did all the work necessary to obtain salvation from God in this life and the next.
The person is required to believe it to receive it, much like if you act when you see your house is on fire.
No God does not gift belief!!
Really there is no debate, only those who seek to undermine the truth and the rest left to protect the truth.
The noun in Eph 2:8 is "pistis," with an -eōs ending to match dia = through.
(Ephesians 2:8) 8 By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith (noun form), and this is not of your own doing; rather salvation is God's gift.
By works of the law no flesh is justified.
By nature is not willing to do the will of God. By nature, a lion eats meat. Is the lion acting righteously? Willing to do something involves volition. Doing things by nature does not.
You mean like Jesus "dominated and oppressed" the helpless blind man in Jn 9, or the way the Good Samaritan "dominated and oppressed" the helpless half-dead crime victim whom he rescued? Or the way God through Moses "dominated and oppressed" the helplessly enslaved Israelites in Egypt when He came down to rescue/redeem/deliver
But He doesn't give the entire human race a "way out". There's no text in scripture that says God is merciful and compassionate to all mankind w/o exception. Rather his mercy and compassion is limited according to His purpose and will. God has mercy and compassion on whom HE WILLS to have mercy and compassion. He didn't have mercy and compassion in Rom 9 for Ishmael, Esau or Pharaoh.
What in the world? People and their repeated forcing the issue of being forced. Cut it out already.
They blather on endlessness about free will but then when it is said that God enables
people suddenly it gets translated into people are being forced! It's ridiculous nonsense.
I have no idea what unrelenting grace is. Why is it even introduced into the convo???
There is no choice mentioned in the scenario of those given to Christ will come. It is simply stated by Jesus that those given to Him will come. And since not all come to Him it cannot be said or assumed that others were given to Him that did not come. It is also said that we were chosen in Him before we were even born. Free willers largely HATE election verses. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
You FORCE belief to precede heart circumcision but it is not in the text. You know what is in the text? Christ opening people's hearts and minds so they can understand and respond. Jesus telling us He came to seek and save the lost. Him saying He came to open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf. Will you tell us how unfair He is, what an unjust tyrannical monster He is forcing people to see and hear? Others do it. Will you call that being forced also? You know what else is in the text? Being made alive in Christ while we were yet dead in the uncircumcision of our flesh. You seem to be having difficulty understanding what it means to be in the flesh, and what it means to say flesh brings forth fruit unto death. It certainly does NOT mean that an unregenerated person (the man of the flesh because he is not yet regenerated and a man of the spirit) with an incurably wicked heart that he cannot change can bring forth the fruit of faith unto everlasting life. That directly contradicts the text. It also contradicts that a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. But then FWers yammer on about how man is not the person the Bible makes him out to be. He's not such a bad guy after all, the wicked slaves to sin are atheists only, and murdering your brother is not such a bad act. The twisting and denying and contradicting of the text goes on and on and on by FWers. They ascribe to the unregenerated man characteristics and abilities only the regenerated man is in possession of.
Handled by God from birth, you said. That is not the opposite, and applies to nobody except perhaps John the Baptist. You are still contradicting yourself. You affirm total depravity but then essentially say man can fix himself. You should read how it is actually defined instead of making up your own definition. The Bible also disagrees with you because it says man cannot change himself. His heart is incurably wicked and needs to be REPLACED. With the heart one believes. That is Biblical. The natural man can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. They can ONLY be understood through the Spirit. If you want to insist people intentionally choose to believe what is foolishness to them I can really only assume you choose to believe what you understand to be nonsense. You side with those who claim 1 Cor 2:14 does not even mean what it says. They also say it does not include the gospel, whereas that again contradicts Scripture (1 cor 1:18). They say everyone hears when Jesus said otherwise. Then they say that only applies to Jews while the Bible says the whole world is blinded to the truth and under the power and influence of the devil, some specifically said to be taken captive to do his will. Do you see free will there also? Is the will of the devil to deliever you to Christ? Scripture says the world does not know God and cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. Cannot receive the Spirit of Truth. Let that sink in. Eternal life is knowing Jesus. One must be called out of the world first. Made alive in Christ, and had their incurably wicked heart circumcised.
Some of those people have also claimed that only atheists choose to sin and they are the only ones enslaved to sin. They have said the "natural" man has been debunked, but every single person ever born at least since Jesus Christ started out as a natural man, born after Adam, a child of wrath, an enemy of God inherently hostile in their mind toward Him, REFUSING to come into the light, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, not seeking after God nor able to come to God on his own or even of submitting to God, in need of being born again in Christ to escape the second everlasting death and attain to life ever after. I must suppose no spiritual man exists in their theology either, because FIRST comes the natural and then the spiritual. God draws us with loving kindness that we may repent, and upon coming to believe after comprehending the gospel which no unregenerated person can do, we are then sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit, Who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of His glory.
I am going to leave it at that. Bye.
Only total depravity as he understands it. It seems he believes total depravity means that there is no possibility of man doing anything but evil. But that's not what total depravity is.I went back to the post submitted by Roughsoul1991 from which Cameron143 posed the question about righteousness being found before the indwelling of the Spirit ...
I believe Roughshoul1991 was referring to the indwelling of the Spirit we now have under NC (after Pentecost) as opposed to what was available under OC (before the Lord Jesus Christ came) ... please correct me if I misunderstood your point.
I believe Cameron143 was referring to the actual indwelling of the Spirit within the believer ... please correct me if I misunderstood ...
1 Peter 1:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
vs 10 – the prophets of old searched diligently and prophesied of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
vs 11 – the prophets of old saw the sufferings of Christ ... they saw the glory of Christ ... they did not see the age in which we are now living ... and, according to vs 12, the angels desire to look into ...
.
Is it really flawed because natural man is supposed to be criminal not Saved man?
Yet we are only instructed to just believe. I understand your meaning but believing is actually the most difficult part of the battle.
It is apparent that what people are objecting to is their own made-up definitions instead of what terms actually mean.
While often misunderstood, total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that
as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—
have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we
are and what we do. Everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags”
before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). We sin because we are sinners by nature.
Total depravity summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man.
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant,
some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption”
or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how
accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen
man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly
understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.
The Bible. Not Calvinism, nor is it exclusive to Calvinism despite the many with that derangement syndrome.
The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).
The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that:
1—no one is without sin,
2—no one seeks after God,
3—there is no one who is good,
4—their speech is corrupted by sin,
5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and
6—above all, they have no fear of God.
So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach
that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions
so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12). source
I helped a couple of Chaplains in different holding systems and you would be shocked at the request for Bibles. One visit I helped with Water Baptism even though it was just using bottled water and pouring it over their heads.
And to your point I agree
%
We are not justified by righteous deeds. Only faith in Christ alone.
Where does the moral law come from?
Can unbelievers adhere to morality?
Can they choose to murder or not murder?
Who made the universal law not to murder?
I helped a couple of Chaplains in different holding systems and you would be shocked at the request for Bibles. One visit I helped with Water Baptism even though it was just using bottled water and pouring it over their heads.
And to your point I agree
To another point did the prisoner accept Christ before breaking the law or after once in prison?
Christ didn't die for the fallen angels, yet they're going to stand before Christ and be judged. And all unrighteous sinners will have no excuse because they all know they are guilty. The works of the law written intuitively on their hearts and their own consciences will bear witness to this fact (Rom 2).
What you stated above clearly implies that God wouldn't be able to judge any human being for their personal sins if he hadn't "given them a way out".
What if God had passed over the entire human race the way he did with the fallen angels, providing no salvific remedy whatsoever? God's hands would be judicially be tied in terms of judgment for what reason specifically?
Wrong! God is totally unable to sin, just like man is totally unable to not sin! And what accounts for this inability is not volition but NATURE, as Cam has recently pointed out! Can the leopard change its spots? Do you think, like Studier does, that spot changing is a merely a matter of will or is it a question of ESSENCE/NATURE? Leopards are carnivores because of an act of their will or because eating flesh and blood inheres in their nature? Do leopards become carnivores after they kill and eat, or do they kill and eat because their own nature compels them to do so?
Likewise, God cannot sin, cannot lie, cannot deny Himself because His HOLY nature compels him to do only what is right, holy and good. Likewise, sinners cannot not sin because their sinful natures compel them to sin.