If His Justice is not satisfied, then He contradicts Himself. He demands perfect justice and He achieved it with His divine plan. None of His attributes are compromised by saving a wretched sinner like me. The Bible speaks of mysteries, and this side of glory we strain to comprehend , but in the end it involves a great degree of trust, on our part.
His People He foreknew !
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But the passage is speaking specifically of the nation of Israel. Christians, after the cross, were not foreknown of God being in Christ. That's not in scripture. We are known of God as one of his, the moment we trust the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"But now...after that ye...are known of God..."
Galatians 4:
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Yes but His foreknown arent limited to jews, it expands unto the Gentiles as well. Its not ethnicity motivated.
His perfect justice was satisfied by the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb!
So much philosophy and accusation in your reply.
Back to the text itself.
Here is a simple paragraph from Romans and a foundational text for Calvinism.
Romans 9:6-13
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Here is the question I asked AI.
Using only the N.T.
Can you provide an analysis of Romans 9:6-13.
Please pay particular attention to the words, "works", "the promise".
Also, "the older will serve the younger". Given some say Romans 9:12-13 regards salvation.
I would say it regards the promise.
ChatGPT Replied:
Here is a clear, NT-only analysis of Romans 9:6–13, focusing precisely on:
- “works”
- “the promise”
- “the older will serve the younger”
- whether the passage concerns salvation or the promise.
Text: Romans 9:6–13 (condensed for clarity)
- v6: “It is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.”
- v7: “Nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: ‘Through Isaac your offspring will be named.’”
- v8: “It is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.”
- v9: “For this is what the promise said: ‘At this time I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.’”
- v10-12: “Rebekah conceived by one man, Isaac, though not yet born, not having done any works, ‘the older will serve the younger.’”
- v13: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
“Works” (v11)
- The word “works” (ἔργα) here is explicitly contrasted with God’s calling and purpose:
“though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls.”- In Romans:
- “Works” typically refer to human effort, observance of Torah, or personal merit (Romans 3:20, 4:2, 4:4-6, 11:6).
- Paul insists election and calling are not grounded in human works but in God’s purpose, to uphold God’s freedom to fulfill His promise.
- In this passage, “works” are not the basis for God’s covenantal choice of Jacob over Esau.
“The Promise” (vv7-9)
Thus, Romans 9:6-13 concerns the mechanism of God’s promise working through specific lineage decisions, not simply genetics.
- The “promise” (ἐπαγγελία) in Romans refers to God’s sovereign word to continue the covenantal line through Isaac (not Ishmael) and then through Jacob (not Esau).
- Paul quotes:
“At this time I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” (Genesis 18:10,14)- “Promise” in Romans 4:13-21 refers to God’s word to Abraham that he would become “heir of the world” through faith, not law.
- In Romans 9:8, “children of the promise” = those who are counted as the true offspring of Abraham because God’s word of promise creates the line, not physical descent alone.
“The Older Will Serve the Younger” (v12)
“She was told, ‘The older will serve the younger.’” (Genesis 25:23)
Nowhere in Genesis 25:23 is individual eternal salvation in view; it is about which line will inherit the covenant promise and leadership.
- This statement precedes the birth and any “works” of Jacob and Esau.
- It is about the divine reversal in covenantal inheritance, consistent with God’s choice:
- Isaac over Ishmael
- Jacob over Esau
- David over his older brothers
- The “last will be first” (Matthew 19:30; 20:16).
- In Genesis context, it concerns nations (Israel and Edom), not individual salvation.
Does Romans 9:12-13 regard salvation or the promise?
You are correct:
It regards the promise.
Evidence from the NT:
- Romans 9:4: “to them belong the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.”
- Romans 9:6-13 unfolds how the word of promise has not failed despite Israel’s rejection by showing that God’s promise always worked through sovereign selection within Israel (Isaac, Jacob), not all Israelite lineage.
- Romans 9:30-32 clarifies salvation is by faith, while 9:6-13 addresses the mechanism of the promise and God’s freedom in election.
- “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” (Malachi 1:2-3) is a post-nation formation statement regarding Israel’s covenant status over Edom, not about personal eternal destiny.
- “Works” here are human efforts/merit, explicitly excluded as the reason for God’s election.
- “The promise” refers to the covenantal promise made to Abraham’s seed, working through God’s sovereign choice, not natural descent.
- “The older will serve the younger” is about God’s sovereign choice in the covenantal line, not about salvation.
- Romans 9:6-13 is about the promise and God’s sovereign choice in establishing His covenant, not directly about individual salvation.
I hold to unconditional election of individuals, but let's look at Romans 9:11. Let's suppose for a minute that it is talking about covenant and not salvation, and nations and not individuals. The principle remains that Paul is arguing that because the election was done before Jacob and Esau were born, God was fully responsible for the election and it did not depend on the actions of the two boys. My emphasis is that Paul's argument is based on "timing". Yes, God could know many things in advance, but given the "timing", the choice is not based on any moral action of Jacob and Esau.
Now consider Ephesians 1:4, where some think the individuals are chosen and others think God chose Christ and in Him everyone who will believe corporately. The timing is before the foundation of the world. So this means the purpose is only based on God's choice, if we follow Paul's line of reasoning in Romans 9:11.
Now Revelation 17:8 tells us that people whose names are in the Book of Life had their names written from the foundation of the world. Again, based on the timing, this tells me that each person's name who is in the Book of Life, who is saved, was decided by God before they did any moral actions. (It also suggests that the choice in Ephesians 1:4 included individual names)
Regarding God's love, yes God loves the world. "He makes His sun rise on the evil and the good" (Matthew 5:45 NKJV). God gave us eyes, ears, hands, feet, and a most interesting world to explore. No wonder God charges us with not being thankful, as we take so many such things for granted (Romans 1:21). "Love suffers long" (1 Corinthians 13:4), and that is exactly what He does with the vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22). Yes, I know we don't want anyone to go to hell, but that does not mean that God is not loving if he chooses only to show mercy to some.
VI. When foreknowledge is ascribed to God, the word imports (1) that general prescience whereby He knew from all eternity both what He Himself would do, and what His creatures, in consequence of His efficacious and permissive decree, should do likewise. The Divine foreknowledge, considered in this view, is absolutely universal; it extends to all beings that did, do or ever shall exist, and to all actions that ever have been, that are or shall be done, whether good or evil, natural, civil or moral. (2) The word often denotes that special prescience which has for its objects His own elect, and them alone, whom He is in a peculiar sense said to know and foreknow (Psalm 1.6; John 10.27; 2 Tim. 2.19; Rom. 8.29; 1 Peter 1.2), and this knowledge is connected with, or rather the same with love, favour and approbation.
Absolute Predestination. — Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanted) - "Steelite" Covenanters
1562-Jerome Zanchius (1516-1590).-A classic statement of the doctrine of predestination from an early Reformer who presents a supralapsarian point of view on the subject.
www.covenanter.org
Absolute Predestination. — Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanted) - "Steelite" Covenanters
1562-Jerome Zanchius (1516-1590).-A classic statement of the doctrine of predestination from an early Reformer who presents a supralapsarian point of view on the subject.
@greenonions
You said some good things, but do you believe God loved or loves the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction ? Are they ever amongst the ones He considers His foreknown ? Thanks
You said some good things, but do you believe God loved or loves the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction ? Are they ever amongst the ones He considers His foreknown ? Thanks
That was a good reply.
Yet, when we read Romans carefully your interpretation, that is, an unconditional election of an individual.
Cannot be sustained given the context. I asked AI to consider unconditional election.
Using N.T. only. Is it possible to interpret the text (Romans 9) with an individual election in mind, given the background context. Paul uses words such as Israel, Jews, Gentiles. I would declare corporate election rather than individual election. Roman's chapters 2 thru 11, describe the Jewish position in election and the history of the Jewish position.
ChatGPT said:
Here is a clear, NT-only analysis for your question:
Context: Romans 2–11- Romans 2–3: Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin; the Jew has advantage in receiving the oracles of God but not in righteousness before God (Rom 3:1–2, 9, 19).
- Romans 4: Abraham is justified by faith before circumcision, making him the father of all who believe, Jew and Gentile (Rom 4:9–12).
- Romans 5–8: The gospel opens justification, sanctification, and future glory to all who are “in Christ.”
- Romans 9–11: Deals with Israel’s role in redemptive history, the faithfulness of God’s promises, and the mystery of Gentile inclusion.
Romans 9: Summary- Key terms: “Israel,” “children of the promise,” “descendants,” “election,” “not by works but by Him who calls.”
- Paul explains why many Jews have not believed in the Messiah despite being the covenant people.
- Uses historical examples (Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau) to show God’s freedom in establishing His covenant line.
Individual vs. Corporate Election in Romans 9Reasons for Corporate Election View:
Paul is addressing why “Israel” as a people is in the current position, explaining that God’s promise did not fail because the promise was never to all physical descendants (Rom 9:6–8). “Jacob I loved, Esau I hated” (Rom 9:13) is quoted from Malachi 1:2–3, which refers to nations (Israel vs. Edom), not merely individuals. The language of vessels of mercy and wrath (Rom 9:22–24) fits groups (Jews, Gentiles) being used to display God’s mercy and justice in salvation history. Romans 10–11 continues to speak of Israel’s corporate hardening (Rom 11:7, 25) and the inclusion of the Gentiles as a people. Romans 11:28–29 speaks of Israel as “enemies for your sake, but beloved for the sake of the fathers,” reinforcing a corporate covenantal framework.However, what about individual election?
It is true that faith is required individually for inclusion among the elect (Rom 9:30–33; 10:9–13). Romans 8:29–30 speaks of predestination “to be conformed to the image of His Son,” which is personal, but even there it says “those whom He foreknew” likely referring to covenant people corporately (Israel) in Paul’s language, not an eternal selection of arbitrary individuals. ConclusionGiven:
- The corporate focus on Israel and Gentiles in Romans 2–11,
- Paul’s consistent concern for Israel’s collective history,
- Use of national examples (Isaac/Ishmael; Jacob/Esau) to illustrate God’s covenant choices,
- The corporate language in Romans 11 (“branches broken off,” “all Israel will be saved”),
There's no doubt some mystery here. I could see carnally minded people saying, "I'm one of the elect and you're not, so I won't bother with you." He seems to clarify that they still need a redeemer.
@Inquisitor
False it is about individual election to salvation, even the corporate understanding is comprised of single individuals, each single individual was particularly chosen by God to comprise the Church, the Body of Christ, the body of called out ones. Each member is grafted in by Faith from unbelief 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Rom 11
False it is about individual election to salvation, even the corporate understanding is comprised of single individuals, each single individual was particularly chosen by God to comprise the Church, the Body of Christ, the body of called out ones. Each member is grafted in by Faith from unbelief 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Rom 11
Below are two paragraphs from Romans 9.
If these were the only two paragraphs in chapter nine what do you think Paul
is talking about in chapter nine of Romans?
Romans 9:1-4
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites.
Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,
but as though it were by works.
Thank you. I think God loves everyone. Psalm 145:9 says "The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Maybe this doesn't explicitly say the word love. Jesus taught us to love our enemies in Matthew 5:43-48 and how this is how we should be like our Father in heaven, meaning that our Father in heaven loves His enemies. I don't think the vessels of wrath are foreknown in the sense of Romans 11:2.
That was a good reply.
Yet, when we read Romans carefully your interpretation, that is, an unconditional election of an individual.
Cannot be sustained given the context. I asked AI to consider unconditional election.
Using N.T. only. Is it possible to interpret the text (Romans 9) with an individual election in mind, given the background context. Paul uses words such as Israel, Jews, Gentiles. I would declare corporate election rather than individual election. Roman's chapters 2 thru 11, describe the Jewish position in election and the history of the Jewish position.
ChatGPT said:
Here is a clear, NT-only analysis for your question:
- Romans 2–3: Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin; the Jew has advantage in receiving the oracles of God but not in righteousness before God (Rom 3:1–2, 9, 19).
- Romans 4: Abraham is justified by faith before circumcision, making him the father of all who believe, Jew and Gentile (Rom 4:9–12).
- Romans 5–8: The gospel opens justification, sanctification, and future glory to all who are “in Christ.”
- Romans 9–11: Deals with Israel’s role in redemptive history, the faithfulness of God’s promises, and the mystery of Gentile inclusion.
- Key terms: “Israel,” “children of the promise,” “descendants,” “election,” “not by works but by Him who calls.”
- Paul explains why many Jews have not believed in the Messiah despite being the covenant people.
- Uses historical examples (Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau) to show God’s freedom in establishing His covenant line.
Reasons for Corporate Election View:
However, what about individual election?
Given:
It is more consistent with the NT context to interpret Romans 9 as teaching corporate election (the calling of groups for covenantal purposes) rather than teaching individual election for salvation.
- The corporate focus on Israel and Gentiles in Romans 2–11,
- Paul’s consistent concern for Israel’s collective history,
- Use of national examples (Isaac/Ishmael; Jacob/Esau) to illustrate God’s covenant choices,
- The corporate language in Romans 11 (“branches broken off,” “all Israel will be saved”),
I'd like to remind you that ChatGPT may favour the majority view that it is trained on, but the caveat is that the majority is not always right. Still it is a valuable resource.
Romans 9 is not telling us why Israel was elect corporately and others were hardened. It is telling us why not everyone in Israel is elect. Therefore, its focus is on individual election of some within Israel, not corporate election. See Romans 9:6.
You may not understand my previous post.
I restrained AI to the New Testament text only.
All AI can do is to read Romans and understand Paul's argument.
AI cannot use any text outside of the N.T., so AI cannot consider the majority of the scholars.
There is no doubt whatsoever that Paul was explaining why the descendants of Abraham.
Were not eligible for salvation because they were the chosen people.
The Jews thought they had that privilege.
Luke 3:8
Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves,
‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
As Jesus told the Jews so Paul repeats the same argument in Romans 9.
Romans 9:6-7
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants.
Interesting. Well, I can agree that Romans does talk about the corporate election of Israel. I will point out that ChatGPT did not do exactly as you asked, because it mentions Malachi 1:2-3. I was going to cite Romans 11:7 about the plural elect, and to my surprise, it is singular. So it does seem like Romans 11:7 is still talking about corporate election of Israel.
So we agree only a remnant is included in the corporate election (Rom. 11:5). The question is whether membership is decided by God's choice first or by man's choice first. I think Romans 11:6-13 shows that membership as Abraham's seed or children of God is decided by God. So yes there is corporate election, but God also decides who is included. And this decision about inclusion or not is also called election in Romans 9:11, so I would say that individual election is also present in the passage. It would be wrong to say there is only corporate election or only individual election in view.
People attempt to deny individual election by appealing to corporate election, not realizing that instead of denying individual election they confirm it, since any corporate is made up of individual members.
Corporate:
pertaining to a united group, as of persons.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/corporate
But instead of manifesting love, the tulipists accuse God/the HS of hating half of humanity,
which borders on blasphemy, and makes their claim to be Christians ("Lord, Lord") problematic.
You know, this includes all people born of flesh and blood in the lineage of Adam the first, to receive Adam the Second in belief it is all taken out of the way for us to be new in love and mercy too. The same as Son did, going to that cross once for us all to see it, believe it and become it in truth from Father, revealing the risen Son for our new life to begin in eternity too, to us all. All are called. I do not know how many will choose, I do know God is fair to us all, beyond human being understanding.
John 4:23-24