Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

And? What does that have to do with whether man's will is free to choose God and believe while under the power and influence of Satan?

Well man can't believe in his heart that Christ is lord who rose from the dead until God gives that witness to him

 

[cv5]

Well, if I Look back in my life. So long I now i believed there is God and I prayed to him with my own made rules. With 17 someone told me, that I need to believe in Jesus. I told her I dont need Jesus. 7 years later I met a girl which I wantet to have as girlfriend. She told me she cant become boyfriend to her, because i am not a Christian. I was perplex. I answered: i am baptised as child, i am konfirmiert ( protestant church) why I am not a Christian. Then she told me from the bible what is a Christian. Several months later she took me to a youth Club. The youth Pastor told me about that what Jesus did for me at the cross. Suddenly I understood I cant come to God because of my sin. All the years before this was not clear to me. Then I said if this is true what Jesus did for me at the cross, then I will come to know to know about this Jesus.
This night I confessed Jesus all my sins and ask him to forgive me and to come into my life.
Since this moment I know I belong to the precious Lord Jesus Christ.
So I expieriened that he opend my heart for to understand. And I gave response. It was a strong desire, which I never had before.
So he is the Initiator. Did I had a free will?
I would say yes. But I never would be so proud to say I said Yes to God. Its my work.
It was Gods doing! Praise the Lord he did!

Thanks for your testimony.
IMO, it's probably more true to say that we come into HIS life, rather than saying He comes into OUR life.

But of course we understand this when we say that.

 

[Magenta]

Loving God is doing his comandments which is to love our neighbor as ourself. I've seen unregenerate people do that. That cannot be unpleasing to God.

They are still unsaved. A commandment is that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Man can choose to do any number of things and still not be able to choose God until enabled.

Well man can't believe in his heart that Christ is lord who rose from the dead until God gives that witness to him

That is really the crux of the convo. Many dispute this. They contradict it and outright deny it.

They reject what Scripture says, claim man is born able, and rewrite 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Loving God is doing his comandments which is to love our neighbor as ourself. I've seen unregenerate people do that. That cannot be unpleasing to God.

we love because he first loved us

While they may be technically good deeds. They are not. because they did not flow from God

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That is really the crux of the convo. Many dispute this. They contradict it and outright deny it.

actually we do not

WE believe God did it by his supernatural power and with the word and help of others

YOU think he had to make us born again, so we could not reject him

huge difference

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

we love because he first loved us

While they may be technically good deeds. They are not. because they did not flow from God

Of course they originate in God. It is written that man learns of God through nature, and Christ said that all who learn of the father come to Christ. That learning comes from the holy spirit. So when any person does a good deed it is coming from the holy spirit of truth that witnesses in their heart that it pleases God.

 

[Hakawaka]

Okay you speak of harmonizing after right off the bat confusing what Scripture says. Unbelievers used to be children of wrath, hostile in their minds to God, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. They were not good. Jesus said there were none good and now you deny this also. What is the point of talking to you? You deny the very words of Jesus Christ Himself. I did not post a long wall of Scripture but you did. Gosh. You are like the rest. David was considered righteous after adultery and murder. It seems you don't know why.

You did indeed post a ton of pictures with verses listed on them. I took the time to try to explain it, why wont you do the same? Is it because you just dont KNOW how to reconcile these verses so you keep repeating the one side of the verses and ignoring the others which I presented. Aint nobody denying what Jesus or Paul said, I already told you: Look up what Paul is quoting in Romans 3:10. Hes quoting a Psalm, and the same psalmist speaks of people who are Righteous as well, not ONLY the wicked.

The idea in Romans 3 is: Both jews and gentiles are under sin.

Of course people were hostile in their minds toward God, but that is why God calls them to do what? REPENT; which is: change your mind, turn around, switch directions.

 

[Magenta]

You did indeed post a ton of pictures with verses listed on them.

A ton? Really? When? To whom? In our exchange today? I don't believe I did.
You are confused. I don't have time for your nonsense. Bye.

 

[HeIsHere]

lol

I am amazed people try to compair choosing salvation as the same as choosing which socks to wear.

Instead of mocking people like you continually do. Sometimes it is better to just keep quiet.

Bullies talk as you do. I remember this stuff in high school. Sometimes we just need to grow up (myself included as I can be childish at times)

I think it stems from realizing they have no case except stitching together disparate bible verses wretched out of their context.
Instead of re-examination they double and triple down and resort to slurs.

 

[Mem]

many however. do not see. why?

...because they are discouraged from the false doctrine that there is a good chance that the hope of the Gospel isn't really for them.

 

[cv5]

So you are saying that it is not by grace alone......

Since when is being forgiven of all your sins by His voluntary death not of grace?

And being made holy and righteous and gifted with eternal life which we could never otherwise obtain?

Methinks you have not thought this through.....

 

[Hakawaka]

A ton? Really? When? To whom? In our exchange today? I don't believe I did.
You are confused. I don't have time for your nonsense. Bye.

Thats gotta hurt, thats a gotcha moment.. You got no answer to the verses posted, cannot explain it, cannot reconcile them. So now we resort "ooh i dont remember"

Well, unfortunately for you I got nothing better to do so I will post the pictures, few of MANY you have posted and will always continue to post, full of references to bible verses. I posted LESS than these and you refused to answer them. Why? Why so mean? Because: Angry cause the verses I posted dont work with your system. Thats the problem. You love the system, you cant get rid of the system, its so good its so great. Look at these bible verses it says clearly. It does, but unfortunately the Bible is a long book and has more than the few verses. If you read it cover to cover there is a lot to reconcile on the God's sovereignity and mans responsibility / freedom axis.




Now tell me these arent bible verses being referenced here? And are these not made by you? I seem to see "Love Magenta" at the bottom, and it was posted from your account. This isnt nonsense I was asking you a question. A very important question at that.

 

[Mem]

I'm going to convert to Calvinism just so I can tell everybody, "You're scum of the earth and God hates you, so, you can go to hell." I mean, there's a very good chance that just about everyone will believe me.

 

[Hakawaka]

I'm going to convert to Calvinism just so I can tell everybody, "You're scum of the earth and God hates you, so, you can go to hell." I mean, there's a very good chance that just about everyone will believe me.

It was predestined to occur, you couldn't of done otherwise.

 

[HeIsHere]

Thats gotta hurt, thats a gotcha moment.. You got no answer to the verses posted, cannot explain it, cannot reconcile them. So now we resort "ooh i dont remember"

Well, unfortunately for you I got nothing better to do so I will post the pictures, few of MANY you have posted and will always continue to post, full of references to bible verses. I posted LESS than these and you refused to answer them. Why? Why so mean? Because: Angry cause the verses I posted dont work with your system. Thats the problem. You love the system, you cant get rid of the system, its so good its so great. Look at these bible verses it says clearly. It does, but unfortunately the Bible is a long book and has more than the few verses. If you read it cover to cover there is a lot to reconcile on the God's sovereignity and mans responsibility / freedom axis.

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View attachment 278049

Now tell me these arent bible verses being referenced here? And are these not made by you? I seem to see "Love Magenta" at the bottom, and it was posted from your account. This isnt nonsense I was asking you a question. A very important question at that.

I would say even the verses that are posted do not really work with the system either.

 

[studier]

@sawdust @HeIsHere @cv5 @Hakawaka @Mem et.al.

RE: The Gospel; Faith vs. Belief; Hearing; Volition

When we read Scripture, we often look for it to be very formulaic based upon how we think. It’s often not. Different writers use different terminology and often leave certain things out or short-hand things they have earlier explained or assume to be understood by their audience.

There was discussion earlier that I highlighted regarding the above referenced concepts. Because @sawdust referenced Heb11:1 re: faith, I suggested Heb4:2 be included and not isolated from Heb3 (nor from Heb11).

I just translated Heb4:2 and then looked at 11 different English translations for comparison. Thinking they all lacked some important specificity, I expanded to see if I was alone in what I translated. I found this one which I'll use (please note it is the 1997 revision of the WEB linked below in the title):

World English Bible
A Sabbath-Rest for God's People

(Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 16:22-36)

Heb4:1 Let’s fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn’t profit them, because it wasn’t mixed with faith by those who heard.

3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, they will not enter into my rest;” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

A few things to consider re: the earlier good discussion I flagged and re: some of the things being asserted against human volition, human ability to hear – including a proposed concept of spiritual hearing vs. auditory hearing, synergism, etc.

A few observations and explanations:

• This Scripture is speaking of the failure of the Exodus generation so we can learn from it.
• In Heb4:3 human believing is stated. This verse begins with “for” so it is explaining something that’s been stated – specifically I see it as explaining the “mixed with” in Heb4:2 which I’ll try to bring out in some paraphrasing in a moment. It’s telling us who does the mixing and what they need to mix together with the Gospel. They need to mix belief (aka “faith” here in the WEB) together with the Gospel they hear proclaimed.
• Heb4:2
  • I’m going to switch from the failures and use them to tell us what we do to succeed, and I’ll include observations pertinent to the discussions on this thread.
  • We had the Gospel/the Word/Message heard proclaimed to us
  • We heard the Gospel/the Word/Message proclaimed to us
  • For the Gospel to benefit us
  • We – the ones who hear it proclaimed – must mix it together with belief
• So:
  • There is no supernatural hearing here just as there is no supernatural hearing in Rom10.
  • God [the source of the Gospel/Word/Message heard) [ultimately] proclaims the Gospel.
  • Men hear the Gospel proclaimed
  • Men are responsible to mix belief together with the Gospel heard
  • Since pistis means faith and belief [and other things] we find that Scripture uses them interchangeably and we are left to sort out what’s being discussed (this sorting out is similar to what I flagged @sawdust saying re: spirit vs. Spirit - we're left to do some work in Christ in Spirit).
  • Since men’s belief is stated in 4:3 in explanation to men mixing together pistis with the Gospel in 4:2 I’d probably translate 4:2 as “belief” instead of “faith” for consistency and clarity.
  • Men have the ability to believe what they audibly hear.
  • Volitional men are responsible to choose to mix their belief in what God says together with the content of what God says and do what God says.
  • In Heb3 the author has paralleled belief and obedience. The Exodus generation did not mix belief together with God’s Gospel/Word/Message they heard – they did not obey God.
  • This pictures a synergistic relationship between God and men with God initiating and men cooperatively responding.

 

[HeIsHere]

...because they are discouraged from the false doctrine that there is a good chance that the hope of the Gospel isn't really for them.

Well, you have said the quiet part out loud.
Have thought this for a while now.
It explains many things.

 

[cv5]

@sawdust @HeIsHere @cv5 @Hakawaka @Mem et.al.

RE: The Gospel; Faith vs. Belief; Hearing; Volition

When we read Scripture, we often look for it to be very formulaic based upon how we think. It’s often not. Different writers use different terminology and often leave certain things out or short-hand things they have earlier explained or assume to be understood by their audience.

There was discussion earlier that I highlighted regarding the above referenced concepts. Because @sawdust referenced Heb11:1 re: faith, I suggested Heb4:2 be included and not isolated from Heb3 (nor from Heb11).

I just translated Heb4:2 and then looked at 11 different English translations for comparison. Thinking they all lacked some important specificity, I expanded to see if I was alone in what I translated. I found this one which I'll use (please note it is the 1997 revision of the WEB linked below in the title):

World English Bible
A Sabbath-Rest for God's People

(Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 16:22-36)

Heb4:1 Let’s fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into his rest. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn’t profit them, because it wasn’t mixed with faith by those who heard.

3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, they will not enter into my rest;” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

A few things to consider re: the earlier good discussion I flagged and re: some of the things being asserted against human volition, human ability to hear – including a proposed concept of spiritual hearing vs. auditory hearing, synergism, etc.

A few observations and explanations:

• This Scripture is speaking of the failure of the Exodus generation so we can learn from it.
• In Heb4:3 human believing is stated. This verse begins with “for” so it is explaining something that’s been stated – specifically I see it as explaining the “mixed with” in Heb4:2 which I’ll try to bring out in some paraphrasing in a moment. It’s telling us who does the mixing and what they need to mix together with the Gospel. They need to mix belief (aka “faith” here in the WEB) together with the Gospel they hear proclaimed.
• Heb4:2
  • I’m going to switch from the failures and use them to tell us what we do to succeed, and I’ll include observations pertinent to the discussions on this thread.
  • We had the Gospel/the Word/Message heard proclaimed to us
  • We heard the Gospel/the Word/Message proclaimed to us
  • For the Gospel to benefit us
  • We – the ones who hear it proclaimed – must mix it together with belief
• So:
  • There is no supernatural hearing here just as there is no supernatural hearing in Rom10.
  • God [the source of the Gospel/Word/Message heard) [ultimately] proclaims the Gospel.
  • Men hear the Gospel proclaimed
  • Men are responsible to mix belief together with the Gospel heard
  • Since pistis means faith and belief [and other things] we find that Scripture uses them interchangeably and we are left to sort out what’s being discussed (this sorting out is similar to what I flagged @sawdust saying re: spirit vs. Spirit - we're left to do some work in Christ in Spirit).
  • Since men’s belief is stated in 4:3 in explanation to men mixing together pistis with the Gospel in 4:2 I’d probably translate 4:2 as “belief” instead of “faith” for consistency and clarity.
  • Men have the ability to believe what they audibly hear.
  • Volitional men are responsible to choose to mix their belief in what God says together with the content of what God says and do what God says.
  • In Heb3 the author has paralleled belief and obedience. The Exodus generation did not mix belief together with God’s Gospel/Word/Message they heard – they did not obey God.
  • This pictures a synergistic relationship between God and men with God initiating and men cooperatively responding.

Right. It takes two to tango. Two discrete unique wills that is

 

[Blain]

So I was reading Genesis and when it came to the part where it says this he scripture where God speaks to Cain about sin crouching at the door is Genesis 4:7. In this verse, God tells Cain, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.

is this not an example of free will?

 

[lrs68]

So I was reading Genesis and when it came to the part where it says this he scripture where God speaks to Cain about sin crouching at the door is Genesis 4:7. In this verse, God tells Cain, "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.

is this not an example of free will?

About 20 pages back i presented this very scenario plus a page or 2 back the Moses scenario

Moses looked and saw a bush on fire that was not being consumed by the fire.

This caught his attention.

Not the bush on fire but the fire not burning the bush.

Moses made a choice to go investigate what he was seeing.

Clearly Moses used his Free Will to choose to investigate.

God is the same with Moses as He is with us because He never changes.