Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jackson129]

So what is the difference in agape and philo? I know there is Google but I also like to ask people instead of looking it up.

 

[Cameron143]

Your point?

I read through your argument. You have hearing meaning to be heard audibly, as I understand what you wrote. This would seem to preclude seeing as a means to faith. So, given this, can someone reading the word of God silently, come to faith?

 

[cv5]

I suppose the antediluvians were so wicked because they had a nurturing problem, too, heh? Their every inclination and thoughts of their hearts were wicked continually and they filled the earth with violence.

The had a demon/fallen angel/Nephilim problem.
The women of that day were obviously VOLUNTEERING their reproductive abilities to the wicked angelic beings.

Whenever there is illegitimate concourse and comingling of angels and man, God will ALWAYS intervene and end it.

Therefore, man was WILLFULLY aligning with the plot of Satan to destroy the Adamic line.

And some men remained obedient, like Noah. Because if NO MEN remained obedient, God would not have given 120 more years before judgement came. And there certainly would be no ark and no survivors.

Yes, there were men like Abel in the world all through time before the flood. Just as there were faithful men in Canaan and faithful men today. Men who CHOOSE to serve the Living God, knowing that He is good.

 

[studier]

I read through your argument. You have hearing meaning to be heard audibly, as I understand what you wrote. This would seem to preclude seeing as a means to faith. So, given this, can someone reading the word of God silently, come to faith?

More importantly, do we understand what and that Paul wrote?

I think I answered that when I said we could consider for discussion logically extending the concept from spoken proclamation to written proclamation while not actually changing the Scripture. This seems plausible since God did have the proclamation written for posterity, no?

 

[Melach]

God's enabling of seeking is not irresistible; nor does it pry open a hardened heart (Rom. 10:10-13, Heb. 3:12-19).

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

 

[Cameron143]

More importantly, do we understand what and that Paul wrote?

I think I answered that when I said we could consider for discussion logically extending the concept from spoken proclamation to written proclamation while not actually changing the Scripture. This seems plausible since God did have the proclamation written for posterity, no?

The scripture in view disallows it. Faith comes by hearing. You have assumed beyond what scripture states. How many times have you chastised @Rufus and others for this? Nice try at nuance though.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, man does nothing bout the gift, rather he receives them and that is not a work and no boasting in it. For it is God's will to believe

Yes it is His will and it is the same condition/responsibility for each person and therefore no one can boast.

Unlike the other doctrine where people cannot, will not, are unable to, meet the condition and therefore God needs to intervene individually first.

 

[studier]

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

There seems little to argue against with Lydia while quite frequently having more to consider in contexts of Scriptures even in one verse with multiple instruction:

• Lydia was a seller of purple which was a luxury item and afforded by the elite and even reserved for royalty and the high-ranked. Lydia seems to be exposed to such people. Interestingly she was one of the early believers in the Christ King by being exposed to information about Him
• Lydia worshipped God meaning in the word used she revered God inwardly and outwardly she expressed her allegiance and devotion to God.
• No doubt the Lord/King opened her heart to pay attention to Paul who was proclaiming Him. And to believe who Jesus is, she had to listen with an open heart - an open mind - to Paul explain Him.
• Lydia's home area was an important business center and trade route, and she was obviously someone of some position there given her trade. The Lord not only opened her heart personally but looks to have been opening up an important area to His Ekklesia.

In Acts2 leading up to Acts2:37 the Gospel spoken to Jews and all who lived in Jerusalem who were listening to Peter as he explained who Jesus is and that they had killed Him stabbed them in the heart.

• So, here, it was the Gospel associated with condemning allegation that affected men's hearts and prompting them to beseech Peter to tell them what to do. Repent and be baptized in the Christ/King's name for remission of sins / salvation was the answer.

In Prov1:23 God's Word is used in parallel to God's Spirit. In several verses God's Word is associated with God's Power Rom1:16; Heb4:12; 1Cor1:18; et.al. When we look at single verses in specific contexts, we tend to get laser focused and posit that they substantiate some specific point of view. FWIW, when I read the Text, I see it to be error to disassociate God from His Word from His Spirit from His Power, etc..

Point being, there are many things said about the ways - plural - God wields His power to save people without having to go to and get stuck in any specific theological tradition.

 

[studier]

The scripture in view disallows it. Faith comes by hearing. You have assumed beyond what scripture states. How many times have you chastised @Rufus and others for this? Nice try at nuance though.

I'm pretty sure I already stated what the Scripture states and then I spoke about applying to logic and fact that Paul wrote that for instruction and God has had the Gospel written for posterity. Surely you can think and reason and possibly also look for more Scripture and include the fact that God sent His Son not only to be heard, but seen and touched, no?

FWIW, you brought up the seeing thing when I was simply discussing what the Text says. So, you're diverting into absurdity for whatever reason.

So, your point is that faith only results from verbal proclamation? Give me a call and I'll read it to you.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm pretty sure I already stated what the Scripture states and then I spoke about applying to logic and fact that Paul wrote that for instruction and God has had the Gospel written for posterity. Surely you can think and reason and possibly also look for more Scripture and include the fact that God sent His Son not only to be heard, but seen and touched, no?

FWIW, you brought up the seeing thing when I was simply discussing what the Text says. So, you're diverting into absurdity for whatever reason.

So, your point is that faith only results from verbal proclamation? Give me a call and I'll read it to you.

I'm saying by your own logic reading scripture cannot lead to faith, because faith comes by hearing. By that same logic, God leaving a written record would be so that it could be read aloud to be heard. That would be the logical understanding for those who believe hearing is merely audible hearing. But then by including reading the word of God to yield faith, you included that understanding is necessary. That's the important thing, right? You are correct, of course, but this isn't in the text either. Biblical hearing does include understanding. That's why Jesus said He spoke in parables. Some are given to understand and others are not.

 

[studier]

I'm saying by your own logic reading scripture cannot lead to faith, because faith comes by hearing. By that same logic,

Though I'm the one who suggested in response to your question conceptually looking at this logically and based upon the fact that God had it written down for posterity?

Please consider your arguments and try to be meaningful. And, no, I'm not reading or re-posting the rest of whatever you said. If you begin with such absurdity there's no use in proceeding.

Moving on.

 

[HeIsHere]

There seems little to argue against with Lydia while quite frequently having more to consider in contexts of Scriptures even in one verse with multiple instruction:

• Lydia was a seller of purple which was a luxury item and afforded by the elite and even reserved for royalty and the high-ranked. Lydia seems to be exposed to such people. Interestingly she was one of the early believers in the Christ King by being exposed to information about Him
• Lydia worshipped God meaning in the word used she revered God inwardly and outwardly she expressed her allegiance and devotion to God.
• No doubt the Lord/King opened her heart to pay attention to Paul who was proclaiming Him. And to believe who Jesus is, she had to listen with an open heart - an open mind - to Paul explain Him.
• Lydia's home area was an important business center and trade route, and she was obviously someone of some position there given her trade. The Lord not only opened her heart personally but looks to have been opening up an important area to His Ekklesia.

In Acts2 leading up to Acts2:37 the Gospel spoken to Jews and all who lived in Jerusalem who were listening to Peter as he explained who Jesus is and that they had killed Him stabbed them in the heart.

• So, here, it was the Gospel associated with condemning allegation that affected men's hearts and prompting them to beseech Peter to tell them what to do. Repent and be baptized in the Christ/King's name for remission of sins / salvation was the answer.

In Prov1:23 God's Word is used in parallel to God's Spirit. In several verses God's Word is associated with God's Power Rom1:16; Heb4:12; 1Cor1:18; et.al. When we look at single verses in specific contexts, we tend to get laser focused and posit that they substantiate some specific point of view. FWIW, when I read the Text, I see it to be error to disassociate God from His Word from His Spirit from His Power, etc..

Point being, there are many things said about the ways - plural - God wields His power to save people without having to go to and get stuck in any specific theological tradition.

I think Lydia was a believer but had limited knowledge about what she believed, we need to always remember how new all this was at the time.

 

[HeIsHere]

Though I'm the one who suggested in response to your question conceptually looking at this logically and based upon the fact that God had it written down for posterity?

Please consider your arguments and try to be meaningful. And, no, I'm not reading or re-posting the rest of whatever you said. If you begin with such absurdity there's no use in proceeding.

Moving on.

You will notice that once you deal with a section of scripture like you did so well with John 1:13, they will typically circle back to another proof text, over and over again.

 

[studier]

I think Lydia was a believer but had limited knowledge about what she believed, we need to always remember how new all this was at the time.

Agree about the newness. Also, false Messiahs were not unheard of. There's a lot going on and the transition between covenants was profound and took a generation to be fully implemented and more and more advancing.

For clarity, I see Lydia as a reverent believer in God needing to believe in Jesus as Messiah like all the remnant Jews and God-fearing Gentiles and onward from there. And I don't see her experience as necessarily normative but certainly informative of the many ways our Lord worked and works.

 

[cv5]

You will notice that once you deal with a section of scripture like you did so well with John 1:13, they will typically circle back to another proof text, over and over again.

Misapprehension is their playbook.
Regardless of how many times they strike out.

 

[HeIsHere]

Misapprehension is their playbook.
Regardless of how many times they strike out.

Makes me always wonder if they are looking for converts along with defending the faulty "system."

 

[Cameron143]

Though I'm the one who suggested in response to your question conceptually looking at this logically and based upon the fact that God had it written down for posterity?

Please consider your arguments and try to be meaningful. And, no, I'm not reading or re-posting the rest of whatever you said. If you begin with such absurdity there's no use in proceeding.

Moving on.

Absurdity is the logical conclusion to your argument. That's the point if you limit hearing to audibly hearing.

 

[cv5]

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Right. A sincere seeking prepared heart God will always edify with greater truth.

She was WILLING to hear yes. But more than that anticipating the mercy and grace that she knew that her Good God would inevitably provide.

And yes, this SPECIFIC "spiritual update" God did provide thru Paul.

 

[studier]

You will notice that once you deal with a section of scripture like you did so well with John 1:13, they will typically circle back to another proof text, over and over again.

Yes, I have noticed the m.o. and several other tactics. Details seem to make error uncomfortable. I'm used to reading arguments delving more, and even very deeply more into the details. Even though I've been here for a while the practices and this part of Christianity are still kind of surprising and disappointing. Based upon the Grace many speak of, I'm of the view that we should be much more than we display here.

 

[HeIsHere]

Absurdity is the logical conclusion to your argument. That's the point if you limit hearing to audibly hearing.

What seems absurd to me God is giving a Gospel which cannot be acted upon positively, unless they have unique, divine, special intervention.