Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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FWers, gird up the loins of your minds and listen up. You guys (and gals) have a very difficult problem to solve that your Pelagianism, Arminianism or Freewillism presents with scripture. First, I will quote one of your most highly favored, go-to "proof texts" that supposedly proves that God desires to save all men w/o exception. This is one of many passages you guys mangle because you interpret it out of context, which I have showed numerous times in the past. But this time, I'm going to take a different tact.
1 Tim 2:1-6
2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time.
NIV
Every respectable, card-carrying FWer will shamelessly and unabashedly tell us that the phrase "all men" in vv. 4 and 6 absolutely means all w/o exception. That's what God wants/desires, so you FWers tell us. But when we come to this next passage, the above passage collides with it and self-destructs! Ready?
Isa 55:9-13
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD's renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed."
NIV
Clearly the god of you FWers is a liar! On one hand, your version of God wants/desires that each and every person in the world to be saved, according to your understanding of 1Tim 2, yet at the same time your god's word does return to him VOID or EMPTY big time since only a small remnant is being saved.
To further exacerbate the problem, we should not overlook or ignore the analogy the prophet made between vv. 10-11 in the Isaiah passage. Since you FWers also vehemently deny the efficacy to God's grace/power when it comes to things spiritual because if it were effectual this would make God a tyrannical monster who would be forcing his will upon people turning them into robots. BUT...if this is true then God's grace/power would also lack all efficacy when it comes to the maintenance and sustenance of phsycial life in this physical world. The analogy totally breaks down. The god of you FWers is a weak, impotent, ineffective, pathetic, cosmic being whose will is always being thwarted, which of course presents, yet, another contradiction (Job 42:2).
A few weeks ago I commented on this false dichotomy that you FWers have unwittingly established between the efficacy of God's power in this physical world and the ineffectiveness of his power in the spiritual realm. Or maybe your god is a schizo, having a split personality? Does your god have a mental disorder? How come your god cannot deliver the goods (the supposed desires of his heart) and save all men w/o exception? Why is your god such a dismal, pathetic savior who can save only a tiny fraction of mankind -- even though you allege he wants to save each and person on the planet for whom Christ died?
Maybe your god needs to get on some cosmic steroids to boost the efficiencey and effectiveness of his power so that he can make good on what he desires according to 1Tim 2. OR...here'a a "novel" idea: Trade in the idol you worship for the one and only true God as He has revealed himself in His Word.
1 Tim 2:1-6
2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time.
NIV
Every respectable, card-carrying FWer will shamelessly and unabashedly tell us that the phrase "all men" in vv. 4 and 6 absolutely means all w/o exception. That's what God wants/desires, so you FWers tell us. But when we come to this next passage, the above passage collides with it and self-destructs! Ready?
Isa 55:9-13
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
12 You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD's renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed."
NIV
Clearly the god of you FWers is a liar! On one hand, your version of God wants/desires that each and every person in the world to be saved, according to your understanding of 1Tim 2, yet at the same time your god's word does return to him VOID or EMPTY big time since only a small remnant is being saved.
To further exacerbate the problem, we should not overlook or ignore the analogy the prophet made between vv. 10-11 in the Isaiah passage. Since you FWers also vehemently deny the efficacy to God's grace/power when it comes to things spiritual because if it were effectual this would make God a tyrannical monster who would be forcing his will upon people turning them into robots. BUT...if this is true then God's grace/power would also lack all efficacy when it comes to the maintenance and sustenance of phsycial life in this physical world. The analogy totally breaks down. The god of you FWers is a weak, impotent, ineffective, pathetic, cosmic being whose will is always being thwarted, which of course presents, yet, another contradiction (Job 42:2).
A few weeks ago I commented on this false dichotomy that you FWers have unwittingly established between the efficacy of God's power in this physical world and the ineffectiveness of his power in the spiritual realm. Or maybe your god is a schizo, having a split personality? Does your god have a mental disorder? How come your god cannot deliver the goods (the supposed desires of his heart) and save all men w/o exception? Why is your god such a dismal, pathetic savior who can save only a tiny fraction of mankind -- even though you allege he wants to save each and person on the planet for whom Christ died?
Maybe your god needs to get on some cosmic steroids to boost the efficiencey and effectiveness of his power so that he can make good on what he desires according to 1Tim 2. OR...here'a a "novel" idea: Trade in the idol you worship for the one and only true God as He has revealed himself in His Word.
And there are also concordances online.
And welcome aboard, Tourist -- most especially since you appreciate Magenta's posts, as I do, as well.
God is not in the business of denying salvation to people.
“Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.”
Isaiah 12:2 KJV
“And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”
Isaiah 49:6
Thank you, my friend, that is very kind of you to say. I hope you and yours including Tango and Sugar are well! I was recently cat sitting for the first time at my daughter's new house (she and her aunt and their two dogs and two cats moved in late last year) and was feeding Luna different food and so now she is on a whole new diet because... well, it seems she did not like her old food as much as I thought she had haha. My daughter's animals always clean out their bowls and my little one almost never did before, but she does now!
And there are also concordances online.
And welcome aboard, Tourist -- most especially since you appreciate Magenta's posts, as I do, as well.
Did you have to call for reinforcements, that is often how it goes, people just randomly show up.
What a despicable thing to say.Did you have to call for reinforcements, that is often how it goes, people just randomly show up.
Wonderful story about Luna and the food. Tango and Sugar are both healthy and happy. They will each be 10 years old next month. Occasionally, I will buy a different brand of cat food to keep them form getting tired of eating the same thing each day. Currently, they get Fancy Feast, a different flavor each day.
I have not spoken with @studier on the topic and I'm not reading his posts as I'm discussing this issue with you and you with me, so deal with my words please and I will deal with yours.
I already stated I did not see your point but instead of explaining it, you double down with a defensive and accusatory attitude. Why can't you just discuss ideas without turning into a jerk, at least, that is how you come across? It's not helpful.
Grace does not empower anyone to make the right choice, it sets men free to make their own choice. Whether that choice is right or wrong, only God can declare for only He can be guaranteed to make the right choice. If grace empowered us to make the right choice, there would be no discussion/debate amongst us. We would all automatically choose the truth.
What grace does, at the point of Gospel hearing, is set men in a position as if they are free from their sin nature so they can make a decision from their own soul without the binding influence of the sin nature.
Even after we are saved, we are not guaranteed to make the right choice which, is why we are commanded to be filled with the Spirit for it is only from this position can we ever hope do what is right. However, if we lack truth, how can we know what is right? This is why we must worship in Spirit and truth. Jn.4:24
It seems to me you assume we are all born wicked and ignore that our volition comes from our souls which is created in God's image and likeness. We are knowing neither good nor evil but rather, are a blank slate when it comes to wickedness and goodness. But just as the Lord went looking for Adam and Eve in the Garden, so too does the Lord look for us. From the moment we can think He is already there in grace and truth. Truth always precedes the lies of Satan/world or the deceptions of our sin nature this is why Jesus would say those who come to Him have learned from the Father. Jn.6:45
The LORD God gives us many moments of "clarity" before we are hear the Gospel and are able to respond with any degree of understanding.
It is the truth that sets us free Jn.8:31-32 , so if you believe a lie you are not free, even if you are saved. Note, Jesus said it is us abiding in His word that sets us free, not Him abiding in us. This is how we can grieve and quench the Spirit because we reject His truth (He is the truth Jn.14:6 ). He will never cast us aside but we can walk as if we are not saved, just as an unsaved person can hear the Gospel as if they are free.
As far as singling out one "FWer" and then labeling the rest of us the same, as if we share in some hive mind, it might be worth noting there are other FWer's who agree with my position.
Was the deity of Christ glorified in His ascension or was the humanity of Christ glorified? Can you be something other than human and still be called Christ's brother?
We will have no desire to sin so whether we have the ability is irrelevant.
Going off point again. Did God choose Israel? Did He choose Israel because of anything that was true of them? Did He choose them because He wanted to manifest His love to them? Did God force Israel to be His people?
That is good to know! I have had Luna for 11 years now... and she is currently eating something called Perfect Portions, but it is actually a bit too small a portion LOL which is funny but I have lots of other food for her so I just mix in a small amount of the other older food with the new and Voila! It is perfect and she gobbles it all up. My daughter's aunt's dog is I think 15 now and people are always asking, how old is your puppy? Both dogs get a lot of attention when they holiday with my daughter and her aunt because they are so cute and also very obedient and know how to pose for the camera LOL One year they went away for 3 weeks and we all agreed later that was too long. This year it was ten days which was quite doable for all of us although I did find their new house too big for me. So much walking!
Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you
to be a people for His prized possession out of all peoples on the face of the earth.
Thought that might be the case. It also seems to afford a reason to ignore the points re: election that I mentioned that are in disagreement with your view.