Who is Jesus Christ in this verse and why they call him The Everlasting Father?

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DavidLamb

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Feb 21, 2025
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If you look in the Septuagint it doesn't have everlasting father, so the truth can't be determined simply by what the Masoretic Text says in that verse. The NT doesn't support the idea that Jesus is the father.
I am sorry, but I am not knowledgeable enough about the Septuagint to know how reliable it is. I do know that it is a translation of the Old Testament, and no translation of the bible is perfect. All 30 English translations of the bible that I have access to do include "Everlasting Father," or something equivalent, such as "eternal Father."
 
Nov 1, 2024
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I am sorry, but I am not knowledgeable enough about the Septuagint to know how reliable it is. I do know that it is a translation of the Old Testament, and no translation of the bible is perfect. All 30 English translations of the bible that I have access to do include "Everlasting Father," or something equivalent, such as "eternal Father."
The Septuagint (LXX), or a Hebrew text that is no longer existent, is what the apostles used in their writings as evidenced by their OT quotes in the NT that match the LXX, but not bibles translated from the Masoretic Text (MT), which is what those 30 translations were translated from. The MT was made nearly 1000 years after the LXX was translated, so that provided a lot of time for tradition to replace truth in some cases.
 

DavidLamb

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Feb 21, 2025
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The Septuagint (LXX), or a Hebrew text that is no longer existent, is what the apostles used in their writings as evidenced by their OT quotes in the NT that match the LXX, but not bibles translated from the Masoretic Text (MT), which is what those 30 translations were translated from. The MT was made nearly 1000 years after the LXX was translated, so that provided a lot of time for tradition to replace truth in some cases.
Thanks for that. Just to make sure I have understood all of your post, can I check that you are not saying that our English translations of the OT were translated from the Septuagint, which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew OT? Thanks again.
 
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Thanks for that. Just to make sure I have understood all of your post, can I check that you are not saying that our English translations of the OT were translated from the Septuagint, which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew OT? Thanks again.
Most English OTs are translated from the Hebrew Masoretic text. The NT of course is not being translated from Greek manuscripts. In a few English translations the OT was translated from the LXX. The OT in some bibles was translated from the MT, but uses the LXX version of verses in some cases. An example of this is a bible version (forget the exact name; Tanach or something like that) published by the Jewish Publication Society that is translated from the MT, but uses the LXX version of Zechariah 14:5 because the evidence supports that rendering.
 

DavidLamb

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Feb 21, 2025
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Paignton, Devon, UK
Most English OTs are translated from the Hebrew Masoretic text. The NT of course is not being translated from Greek manuscripts. In a few English translations the OT was translated from the LXX. The OT in some bibles was translated from the MT, but uses the LXX version of verses in some cases. An example of this is a bible version (forget the exact name; Tanach or something like that) published by the Jewish Publication Society that is translated from the MT, but uses the LXX version of Zechariah 14:5 because the evidence supports that rendering.
So if the English OT is translated from the Masoretic text, where did the translators get "Everlasting Father" from?

And surely you cannot really mean what you posted in this sentence: "The NT of course is not being translated from Greek manuscripts." What was the NT translated from then, if not Greek manuscripts?
 
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So if the English OT is translated from the Masoretic text, where did the translators get "Everlasting Father" from?

And surely you cannot really mean what you posted in this sentence: "The NT of course is not being translated from Greek manuscripts." What was the NT translated from then, if not Greek manuscripts?
Everlasting father is in the Hebrew MT, but it's not in the Greek LXX.

Sorry I forgot a comma and the language is a little awkward. Should read "The NT of course is not (translated from the MT), being (instead) translated from Greek manuscripts."
 

DavidLamb

Active member
Feb 21, 2025
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Paignton, Devon, UK
Everlasting father is in the Hebrew MT, but it's not in the Greek LXX.

Sorry I forgot a comma and the language is a little awkward. Should read "The NT of course is not (translated from the MT), being (instead) translated from Greek manuscripts."
Thanks, that makes much more sense!
 

Godsgood

Active member
Oct 31, 2024
276
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Perhaps , the most common questions of the Bible believers.
If Jesus is the Everlasting Father.

*Why he was talking frequently to his father?
LUKE 23:34
34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
LUKE 23:46
46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

* Why Jesus said that he come from the Father and even claimed that he is the Son of God?
JOHN 3:16
16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
JOHN 10:36
36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

*And why there was a time that he thanks his Father?
MATTHEW 11:25
25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
 

Godsgood

Active member
Oct 31, 2024
276
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28
Perhaps , the most common questions of the Bible believers.
If Jesus is the Everlasting Father.

*Why he was talking frequently to his father?
LUKE 23:34
34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
LUKE 23:46
46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

* Why Jesus said that he come from the Father and even claimed that he is the Son of God?
JOHN 3:16
16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
JOHN 10:36
36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

*And why there was a time that he thanks his Father?
MATTHEW 11:25
25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Another verse is.
*Why Jesus said to Mary Magdalene that he has a Father and he has a God.
JOHN 2017
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 

Godsgood

Active member
Oct 31, 2024
276
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Another verse is.
*Why Jesus said to Mary Magdalene that he has a Father and he has a God.
JOHN 2017
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
We can't deny the Truth of the verses given that Jesus is a Son of God.
In fact we can present more verses to prove that Jesus is a Son of God.

Likewise we can't also deny the verses given previously that Jesus is the Everlasting Father.

JOHN 8:56-58
JOHN 10:30
JOHN 14:8-9
LUKE 23:42-43
ISAIAH 43:10-11
JOHN 8:24
JOHN 9:38
REVELATION 17:14
REVELATION 19:16

Does it mean that Jesus is The Everlasting Father and at the same time he is the Son of God?
 

Godsgood

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Oct 31, 2024
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We can't deny the Truth of the verses given that Jesus is a Son of God.
In fact we can present more verses to prove that Jesus is a Son of God.

Likewise we can't also deny the verses given previously that Jesus is the Everlasting Father.

JOHN 8:56-58
JOHN 10:30
JOHN 14:8-9
LUKE 23:42-43
ISAIAH 43:10-11
JOHN 8:24
JOHN 9:38
REVELATION 17:14
REVELATION 19:16

Does it mean that Jesus is The Everlasting Father and at the same time he is the Son of God?
If Jesus is the Everlasting Father that manifest or seen in the Flesh according to Paul in 1 Timothy 3:16.

Is it possible that Jesus is also the Son of God?

1 TIMOTHY 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 

DavidLamb

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Feb 21, 2025
237
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Paignton, Devon, UK
If Jesus is the Everlasting Father that manifest or seen in the Flesh according to Paul in 1 Timothy 3:16.

Is it possible that Jesus is also the Son of God?

1 TIMOTHY 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
It's not only possible, it is stated in the bible, including the record of the conversation between Jesus Himself and the high priest:

“60 And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, saying, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 61 But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”” (Mr 14:60-62 NKJV)
 
Oct 31, 2024
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If Jesus is the Everlasting Father that manifest or seen in the Flesh according to Paul in 1 Timothy 3:16.

Is it possible that Jesus is also the Son of God?

1 TIMOTHY 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
If Jesus is The Everlasting Father and at the same time He is the Son of God.

Let us take this verse when Simon Peter recognized Jesus.
Peter mentioned that Jesus is The CHRIST = SAVIOR (Isaiah 43:10-11) = FATHER and THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

Therefore: Jesus in his 1 body is playing 2 roles.
Role of the Father and Role of the Son.

MATTHEW 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 
Mar 10, 2025
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Terra Firma (Earth)
Because Jesus and The Father are One:
“Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us. Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.” (John 14:8-10) and,
“Now, Father, bring me into the glory we shared before the world began I have revealed you[a] to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word.7 Now they know that everything I have is a gift from you, for I have passed on to them the message you gave me. They accepted it and know that I came from you, and they believe you sent me. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me. (John 17:5-8, 21)
 

Godsgood

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Oct 31, 2024
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If Jesus is The Everlasting Father and at the same time He is the Son of God.

Let us take this verse when Simon Peter recognized Jesus.
Peter mentioned that Jesus is The CHRIST = SAVIOR (Isaiah 43:10-11) = FATHER and THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

Therefore: Jesus in his 1 body is playing 2 roles.
Role of the Father and Role of the Son.

MATTHEW 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
If Jesus is The Everlasting Father (1st Role) with bunch of bible support. At the same time how he became a Son of God (2nd Role) with bunch of bible support too?
Simon Peter whose recognition to Jesus is from God the Father in Heaven.
MATTHEW 16:16-17
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.[/QUOTE]

Simon Peter also wrote the 2nd Role of Jesus as The Son of God.
According to Simon Peter that Jesus being the Son of God served as model to show the way.
1 PETER 2:21
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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If you look in the Septuagint it doesn't have everlasting father, so the truth can't be determined simply by what the Masoretic Text says in that verse. The NT doesn't support the idea that Jesus is the father.
The NT definitely supports the idea that Jesus is the Father. In fact, it does so many times that a person has to deliberately turn a blind eye as it is clearly revealed:

  • John 3:12-13:
    "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    Jesus reveals He is both human and divinity.

  • Revelation 22:16
    "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star"
    Jesus reveals His divinity and humanity. As expressed He both created David and is the offspring of David. Scripture reveals Jesus was born in the line of David.
  • Revelation 1:7-8:
    "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
    The scripture reveals of whom it speaks. The one to come in the clouds, the one who was pierced. That person is the Alpha and Omega the Almighty; clearly it is a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ.

  • 1 Timothy 3:16:
    "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
    The scripture references point straight to the Lord Jesus.

  • John 1:1:
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This verse identifies Jesus as the Word who was with God and is God.

    John 1:14:
    "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." This verse connects the divine Word with the human Jesus, demonstrating that God became flesh in Jesus.

  • Hebrews 1:8:
    "But of the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.'" This verse directly addresses Jesus as God, with the Father acknowledging his eternal reign.

  • John 8:58:
    "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'" This statement uses the divine name "I AM," connecting Jesus with God's self-revelation in Exodus 3:14.

  • John 10:30:
    "I and the Father are one."

  • Colossians 2:9:
    "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." This verse emphasizes that the fullness of God (Deity) dwells within Jesus in a physical (bodily) form.


  • 1 John 5:20:
    "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
 
Nov 1, 2024
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The NT definitely supports the idea that Jesus is the Father. In fact, it does so many times that a person has to deliberately turn a blind eye as it is clearly revealed:

  • John 3:12-13:
    "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    Jesus reveals He is both human and divinity.

  • Revelation 22:16
    "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star"
    Jesus reveals His divinity and humanity. As expressed He both created David and is the offspring of David. Scripture reveals Jesus was born in the line of David.
  • Revelation 1:7-8:
    "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
    I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
    The scripture reveals of whom it speaks. The one to come in the clouds, the one who was pierced. That person is the Alpha and Omega the Almighty; clearly it is a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ.

  • 1 Timothy 3:16:
    "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
    The scripture references point straight to the Lord Jesus.

  • John 1:1:
    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This verse identifies Jesus as the Word who was with God and is God.

    John 1:14:
    "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." This verse connects the divine Word with the human Jesus, demonstrating that God became flesh in Jesus.

  • Hebrews 1:8:
    "But of the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.'" This verse directly addresses Jesus as God, with the Father acknowledging his eternal reign.

  • John 8:58:
    "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'" This statement uses the divine name "I AM," connecting Jesus with God's self-revelation in Exodus 3:14.

  • John 10:30:
    "I and the Father are one."

  • Colossians 2:9:
    "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." This verse emphasizes that the fullness of God (Deity) dwells within Jesus in a physical (bodily) form.


  • 1 John 5:20:
    "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."
You are misinterpreting the verses you quoted and omitting others that clearly refute the idea that the son and the father are the same thing. For example:

A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. John 16:16
I go to myself? I don't think so.

If you like we can go over them individually because I have no interest in dealing with these verses all at once. So why don't we start with the first one. It doesn't say Jesus is currently in heaven (except in spirit), but rather the one being in heaven, ie the word, came to earth.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,774
1,224
113
Perhaps , the most common questions of the Bible believers.
If Jesus is the Everlasting Father.

*Why he was talking frequently to his father?
LUKE 23:34
34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
LUKE 23:46
46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

* Why Jesus said that he come from the Father and even claimed that he is the Son of God?
JOHN 3:16
16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
JOHN 10:36
36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

*And why there was a time that he thanks his Father?
MATTHEW 11:25
25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Jesus was the Word of God miraculously turned flesh. As such, Jesus make-up was both humanity and divinity combined. This is revealed throughout scripture.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:1-2

Note what John 1:1-2 points to regarding everything that was made; GOD SAID and it came to be:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

AND GOD SAID, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

AND GOD SAID, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
and God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

AND GOD SAID, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

AND GOD SAID, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
And the evening and the morning were the third day.

AND GOD SAID, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

AND GOD SAID, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

AND GOD SAID, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

AND GOD SAID, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, AND GOD SAID unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

AND GOD SAID, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."


Jesus is the WORD made flesh that dwelt among us, and is now In those who have received His Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit of the Almighty.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,774
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You are misinterpreting the verses you quoted and omitting others that clearly refute the idea that the son and the father are the same thing. For example:

A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. John 16:16
I go to myself? I don't think so.

If you like we can go over them individually because I have no interest in dealing with these verses all at once. So why don't we start with the first one. It doesn't say Jesus is currently in heaven (except in spirit), but rather the one being in heaven, ie the word, came to earth.
Sure it does. And you, yourself made reference to the fact that Jesus' make-up was human and divine; He was flesh while also being the essense of God as pertaining to His Spirit.

Consider that Jesus made the statement to Nicodemus who questioned how people could be born again. Something, according to Jesus, Nicodemus should have understood. (John 3:10 ) The account indicates revelation of heavenly things only occurs after earthly things are understood. Naturally those who understand act in accordance with what is understood. Jesus said, "Unless a man is born again he CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God. And unless a man is born of water and Spirit he CANNOT enter the kingdom. The NT rebirth experience results in peoples spiritual eyes becoming open.

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Jesus reveals He is both human and divinity." John 3:12-13