Israel.

[TrustandObey]

They are matching blood to each other not to Abraham.

Quite correct. The DNA test is to match blood of claimed modern family connections.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Israel speaks more like a lion than a lamb.
So by your understanding of scripture 1948 was a forced event? That Satan can duplicate even the very words in the prophecies?
That he would go so far as to mimic the surrounding enemies of Israel that are mentioned in scripture.
That Israel against all odds defeated the opposing enemies when they came to rebuild.
That the barren waste land has not prospered as the scriptures for tell. That the third temple which is scriptural and is waiting to be built is all by Satan's hand? That once again anti semitisim is at a all time high?
And you wonder if it's part of the delusion. Some sort of counterfeit.
I really can't believe your saying this. There have been far more prophecies fulfilled than just 1948. Open your eyes.
Has Israel become that cup of trembling in just the past 2 years.
I think one has to be delusional not to consider the events after 1948.

You made his point without realizing it. Come out of her, my people, lest you partake of her sins and receive of her plagues

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Daniel 12:10​

 

[lrs68]

If you read the history of it all, 1948 didn't happen in one day...and those who dreamed of it were the Zionists when they started the movement long before 1948. They initiated multiple actions that led to the 1948 declaration, including relocating people to the land over several years. They freely received as well as purchased military equipment from Britain and the USA. They trained a militia. And attacked peaceful villages in the land. All of this happened before 1948.

We need to stop romanticizing what these people did to force it to fit prophecy. The "nation born in a day" is most simply but most profoundly speaking about the resurrection of the dead when ALL of the kingdom of Israel, all tribes who have died in faith in Christ will be brought back to life, From Moses to Daniel, from Peter to James, and from those unknown souls who suffered pursecution during the middle ages; everyone in between. It is why Ezekiel 37 details that a vast army stands up. And we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them as the dead rise first. All receive the promise together.

Notice what the passage says: "Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

"bring forth" = to birth

The EARTH births the children of Zion.


Hebrew 12:22-23
But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


The Messiah is firstborn of the dead..


1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.


The passage about a nation being born in one day prophesies the resurrection of the dead in Christ: all tribes of Israel (both natural born and grafted in) who believe in Him. 1948 was not a fulfillment of the passage.

Most of what happened in the Bible that ultimately led to the benefits of the Hebrew and Jewish Peoples originated by the enemies of God. Although we know that what many times is meant for evil God makes it into good. So modern day Israel reads very much like the Anakim and other demonic spawn either controlling Israel or possessing the land or the other forms of control we've seen from the pages from Joshua and throughout the New Testament. Only a sadistic mind would ignore the similarities of how God works to reject what God has done.

 

[lrs68]

grafting requires a cutting both of the root and the branches. It is a necessity to cut off the natural branch in order to graft in the wild branch. In the context of God's sovereign choice, Romans9:5 speaks to the human descendants of Christ. Is it an impossibility that the statement, "Not all Israel are Israel," is speaking more toward the inclusiveness of this ingrafting than toward those cut away? It seems to me the emphasis is on those that constitute Israel, those that hope in God being children of the promise.

Israel doesn't stop being Israel, but it is expanded.

Grafting is also individual basis and not the whole. You remove a few branches and then graft in new ones. If you remove all of the branches there's nothing left to graft on to but a stump that will die out eventually.

 

[lrs68]

Quite correct. The DNA test is to match blood of claimed modern family connections.

They're actually matching for a specific DNA that exists and existed in ancient bones found from known burial boxes from high priests during the Temple days with their family Crest markings and other prominent jews.

 

[lrs68]

You hear all these
Jew sympathizers
complain over and over and over
about how the Jews are being
persecuted and how everyone hates them.
But they never say a word about the
Jews hatred of Christ.
And how the Jews
work to destroy Christian nations.

Now the Muslims are just as evil
But they did not have Christ executed and hate Him.

If you would take the time and read what Isaiah prophesied, what Yeshua confirmed, and what Paul declared you would understand this is something that God has done on purpose so Gentiles like yourself can be saved. But like Paul clarifies the Jews will be saved so it will work out as God intended it to.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If you would take the time and read what Isaiah prophesied, what Yeshua confirmed, and what Paul declared you would understand this is something that God has done on purpose so Gentiles like yourself can be saved. But like Paul clarifies the Jews will be saved so it will work out as God intended it to.

Jews have been saved since Pentecost and will continue to be saved until the lord returns. Nothing has changed and nothing will change in that regard.

 

[lrs68]

Jews have been saved since Pentecost and will continue to be saved until the lord returns. Nothing has changed and nothing will change in that regard.

Romans 11:26 states that "all Israel will be saved," which is interpreted as referring to the ultimate restoration of the Jewish people to God's favor after the Gentiles have been grafted in.

It's funny how the Replacement Theory uses 5 Verses but ignores the other Verses that continue to clarify the ultimate outcome. You know a Doctrine is a complete lie that ignores the majority of Scripture describing the same event.

 

[Yahshua]

You start well, at least providing an argument to explore...

Most of what happened in the Bible that ultimately led to the benefits of the Hebrew and Jewish Peoples originated by the enemies of God. Although we know that what many times is meant for evil God makes it into good. So modern day Israel reads very much like the Anakim and other demonic spawn either controlling Israel or possessing the land or the other forms of control we've seen from the pages from Joshua and throughout the New Testament.

lol but then you invalidate it with a fallacious ad hominem, which doesn't make sense.

Only a sadistic mind would ignore the similarities of how God works to reject what God has done.

------

So, is your argument that demons were in control of Jewish people (remember they weren't "Israel" before 1948), forcing them to relocate, forcing them to gather military equipment, and forcing them to invade peaceful villages in Palestine, raiding and killing families, all before 1948? Or is your argument that Zionists were/are demonic spawn? Who are the "enemies" in your argument? Let me know.


Either way, I don't agree with your overarching point because you're misapplying the theme repeated in the scriptures.

Does the Almighty turn around evil meant for those He loves to lead to good? Absolutely.

Does the Almighty use vessels of dishonor to exercise His will? Absolutely.

But how do we see this play out in the scriptures? By inflicting punishment upon Israel (taking their stuff away and ending their lives), not by orchestrating their material gain through lies, theft, and murder. And the enemies of God were used to punish Israel whenever they violated the covenant. And then, when they returned to the covenant, the Almighty used Israel to punish those enemies. I don't recall an instance where, while in violation of a covenant, the Almighty used enemies to bless Israel with substance and land.

Are the people claiming to be Israel right now in adherence to any covenant (they're either under Messiah's or Moses')?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 11:26 states that "all Israel will be saved," which is interpreted as referring to the ultimate restoration of the Jewish people to God's favor after the Gentiles have been grafted in.

That's a carnal interpretation. All Israel refers to the believing remnant of natural Israel and the fullness of believing gentiles. Jacob prohesied that the seed of Israel would become a fullness of the gentiles. He was not talking about the natural seed

And [Jacob] his father refused, and said, I know, my son, I know: he [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19​

 

[rogerg]

@Yahshua
Look, it's obvious you either didn't read or understand my prior post to you. I'm not going to waste more of my time after this one following you down dumb rabbit holes when you either don't read or can't understand my replies. I have better things to do than that.

Not "removed" meaning "you dropped the verse". Removed as in relationally, like when one says their cousin was "twice removed". I meant the passage was just a chapter and a few verses away from the one you referenced. I'll speak plainly from now on since it can read differently on text.

No meaning it was not applicable nor needed because it doesn't pertain to the subject. In my prior post, I demonstrated its lack of relevancy, you just couldn't grasp it.

Revelation 20:7
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

The thousand years ends before Christ returns. Upon Christ's return judgment day occurs:

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

And that is at Christ's return. After which, there is time no longer, so there cannot be another thousand years.

The last trump of 1 Co 15:52 is the sounding of the seventh angel of Rev 10:6 and 11:15 - there are no further trumps sounded after that one, making it the last trump. The "not all sleep" (of 1Co 51:51) implies that while "not all sleep" (not dead), others do sleep (were dead), meaning, that at the seventh trump, Christ returns to render judgment per Rev 11:18. The seventh trump had already sounded in Rev 11:15. The seventh trump is also the last day/end of time, so therefore all must be completed then.

[1Th 4:15-17 KJV]
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[1Co 15:51 - 54 KJV]
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[Rev 10:6-7 KJV]
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

[Rev 11:15 KJV]
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[Rev 11:18 KJV]
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Two resurrections.

The first resurrection is when the elect becomes saved during their lifetimes; the second at the end when
their new resurrected body is received.

 

[lrs68]

You start well, at least providing an argument to explore...



lol but then you invalidate it with a fallacious ad hominem, which doesn't make sense.



------

So, is your argument that demons were in control of Jewish people (remember they weren't "Israel" before 1948), forcing them to relocate, forcing them to gather military equipment, and forcing them to invade peaceful villages in Palestine, raiding and killing families, all before 1948? Or is your argument that Zionists were/are demonic spawn? Who are the "enemies" in your argument? Let me know.


Either way, I don't agree with your overarching point because you're misapplying the theme repeated in the scriptures.

Does the Almighty turn around evil meant for those He loves to lead to good? Absolutely.

Does the Almighty use vessels of dishonor to exercise His will? Absolutely.

But how do we see this play out in the scriptures? By inflicting punishment upon Israel (taking their stuff away and ending their lives), not by orchestrating their material gain through lies, theft, and murder. And the enemies of God were used to punish Israel whenever they violated the covenant. And then, when they returned to the covenant, the Almighty used Israel to punish those enemies. I don't recall an instance where, while in violation of a covenant, the Almighty used enemies to bless Israel with substance and land.

Are the people claiming to be Israel right now in adherence to any covenant (they're either under Messiah's or Moses')?

The ad hominem is to those who know that we verify patterns in the way God works and has worked with His Chosen People for 4,500 years before Yeshua. And when the pattern matches the old and recognizable happening in the modern world suddenly they claim it isn't God.

If God took 3 left, then 2 rights, and one last left turn over and over in the past and then it happens again when prophecy tells us that it will happen again do we choose to forget that God doesn't change and He's the same then, now, and will be tomorrow?

 

[lrs68]

That's a carnal interpretation. All Israel refers to the believing remnant of natural Israel and the fullness of believing gentiles. Jacob prohesied that the seed of Israel would become a fullness of the gentiles. He was not talking about the natural seed

And [Jacob] his father refused, and said, I know, my son, I know: he [Manasseh] also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother [Ephraim] shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a fullness of gentiles. Genesis 48:19​

You have twisted this verse like wrenching a nut until you strip the edges. Unbelievable!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You have twisted this verse like wrenching a nut until you strip the edges. Unbelievable!

Such an outrageous statement coming from someone who can"t explain what the verse means.

 

[GWH]

If you would take the time and read what Isaiah prophesied, what Yeshua confirmed, and what Paul declared you would understand this is something that God has done on purpose so Gentiles like yourself can be saved. But like Paul clarifies the Jews will be saved so it will work out as God intended it to.

Well, yes, God 's plan of salvation works out as intended,
but although God loves all sinners, all sinners will not be saved,
because God's plan was to save only all who satisfy His requirement,
which is to have faith/receive grace/reflect love/accept Jesus.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The ad hominem is to those who know that we verify patterns in the way God works and has worked with His Chosen People for 4,500 years before Yeshua.

The way God has always worked with his chosen is through faith. Natural Israel was not of faith; it was of law. Only a remnant of natural Israel were of faith.

 

[Yahshua]

@Yahshua
Look, it's obvious you either didn't read or understand my prior post to you. I'm not going to waste more of my time after this one following you down dumb rabbit holes when you either don't read or can't understand my replies. I have better things to do than that.

Oh, so you're one of those members. lol Ok. Oh well...I always give people the benefit of the doubt in my first interaction with them.

[Rev 10:6-7 KJV]
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

^ Look at the verse you referenced. The event lasts for days. It says, "In the days...when he shall begin to sound..." That alone shows the last trump spans at least longer than one human day. Next, you have to contend with Revelation 20:5.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended

Where does this verse fit in your eschatology?

 

[Jackson129]

But wasn't your point the 1000 years - that it will happen after Christ's return? Need to have the passage of actual time for the 1000 years to transpire - the same with the seven years - for that, it cannot be within one unending, everlasting day (if I understand you correctly). As I tried to demonstrate in my post to you and @Yahshua, that after Christ's return there will be time no more and the mystery of God will then be finished. I believe there is a 1000-year period described in the Bible, but that it represents a symbolic, not literal length of time. I believe it started at Pentecost and will end immediately prior to, or upon, Christ's return, the same with the seven years.
Anyway, I respect your POV in this matter - it's a complex subject, and I realize that many, many people see it the same way that you and @Yahshua do. So, given its complexity, and the strong feelings on both sides of the issue, this thread is probably not the best nor appropriate one to delve into it in - it would be off-topic yet could end-up dominating it.

I think the passage 1000 years is one day and one day is a thousand years is ment to mean there is no time for God. Like it is meaningless to Him. Take a string for instance that has no beginning or no ending. That is God's eternal day. Let's say you cut a piece of it out and say this is all of creations time within that string. There are still before and after parts on that string. When you say it is all the same day you are right to God it is. But when the Bible was wrote it had to be in a way that man understands. Since we live in the temperal realm it includes the passage of time. 40 years of wandering, 40 days of rain, 7 years of tribulation, and 1000 year millennium kingdom. All existing within the same eternal day of God.

But you are right if you feel this kind of discussion will take over a thread it may not be part of ill wait for a thread like that to appear.

 

[Yahshua]

The ad hominem is to those who know that we verify patterns in the way God works and has worked with His Chosen People for 4,500 years before Yeshua. And when the pattern matches the old and recognizable happening in the modern world suddenly they claim it isn't God.

If God took 3 left, then 2 rights, and one last left turn over and over in the past and then it happens again when prophecy tells us that it will happen again do we choose to forget that God doesn't change and He's the same then, now, and will be tomorrow?

Who are the modern "enemies" based on your argument?

And are the people claiming to be Israel right now in adherence to any covenant (they're either under Messiah's or Moses')?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I fully believe it.

Two horns like a lamb (i.e., appearing innocent) but speaks like a dragon. Obsessed with conquering that land. No reverence for the Messiah (new covenant). No obedience to the commandments (first covenant). Blindly funded by the nations of the world as they submit to it to the detriment of their own needs. And the Christian majority is completely enamored with them.

Yeah that’s the type of thing I was getting at wondering about also .