Rapture

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GaryA

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Maybe my interpretation is too general but isn't it phrased as the Lord is "coming with the clouds of heaven" rather than "in the clouds of heaven..." (Daniel 7:13; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7) and we that are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected to meet the Lord "in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:17)? Wouldn't the phrasing have been much more succinct if it were worded "we will be caught up together with them in the air to meet the Lord" or "those who are alive and remain will be caught up in the air together with them to meet the Lord"? Although I know that neither here nor there makes all the difference as long as we are with the Lord, the actual phrasing gives me pause in adopting the general consensus in what scripture is telling us, especially considering the reach of the general 'ambiance' on that day. I mean, like, everyone knows when spring has arrived because "spring is in the air."
1 Thessalonians 4:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you think about this in the sense of "the trip up", it can certainly be confusing; however, if you think about it in the sense of "all being 'fully' together" (at the end point of the trip), it should make more sense.

Everyone is not actually 'together' until they all arrive at the final target end destination - 'in the clouds' - which is where 'together' actually comes into being.

It is a trip of short duration; however, the end point of the trip is where the meaning of 'together' is fully formed - 'in the clouds' is where 'together' actually happens.

I hope this will be helpful.
 
Nov 1, 2024
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The rapture is like in the days of Noah.

Noah and family entered the ark and were lifted up off the land by flood waters as the wrath of God was poured out on the wicked. Once the wrath was complete, the water dropped and the ark returned to the land

So likewise we will be lifted from the earth as the wrath of God is poured out, and then will return to earth once it has been completed.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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1 Thessalonians 4:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If you think about this in the sense of "the trip up", it can certainly be confusing; however, if you think about it in the sense of "all being 'fully' together" (at the end point of the trip), it should make more sense.

Everyone is not actually 'together' until they all arrive at the final target end destination - 'in the clouds' - which is where 'together' actually comes into being.

It is a trip of short duration; however, the end point of the trip is where the meaning of 'together' is fully formed - 'in the clouds' is where 'together' actually happens.

I hope this will be helpful.
 
Feb 14, 2025
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Depends.
Saved....is psat , present, and future.
Postrib rapture adherents claim to never see heaven.
Our future salvation is to heaven.
So in a sense, they will be saved, via their head chopped off.

They were/are invited to the party.
They cast down their invitation and mock those clinging to it.
They get in eventually.
Maybe God leaves that scar around their necks as a reminder.
Show me one post-trib post that claim we never see heaven.
 
Feb 14, 2025
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Some have difficulty with the printed word.
Left behind ones are saved.
They now face the ac.
They can stay and accept the mark, or go to heaven as martyrs.
Left behinds are saved, but reject the rapture invite.
They come in later.
Heads re affixed
😆
Show me Scripture to prove this nonsense about those left behind.
 

GaryA

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them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

FYI I worked with some language scholars that quoted this scripture could be understood to say----bring up

which sleep in Jesus God will bring up with him

Just sharing some knowledge here
I think your language scholar friends are getting their prepositions confused.

The actual word in the verse is the instrumental case 'with' and not the accusative case 'up'.
 
Feb 14, 2025
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Lol
You just Posted a verse saying that angels gather in heaven after the tribulation, which is what the pretribulation rapture doctrine agrees with.
You are telling us angels and not Jesus gathers in heaven, not Earth after the tribulation, and somehow think you have posted evidence of a postrib rapture. When, actually, you're not close to doing any such of a thing.
Then you state correctly that the AC destroys anyone refusing the mark.
ahem....you just made the supposed postrib rapture an impossibility, as there is nobody to supposedly rapture postrib.
Why in the world do you guys not Play out your theories?....that have simply been made up outside of the bible?
postribbers are CONSTANTLY telling us angels gather in heaven after the trib, and a few , such as yourself, tell us correctly, that the ac kills all refusing the mark.

ahem...actually EXPOSING postrib rapture theory as IMPOSSIBLE.
Who do the angels gather in Matthew 24:29-31?
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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I do get the commonly accepted interpretation. I was just offering a perspective that caught "up" doesn't necessarily have to do with the direction of the catching as it does with the connotation of it that can only be described as "up" as speaking. For example, I went up to my mother's house. I think likewise with regard to the Lord 'coming with the clouds' where some translations have Him "in the clouds", there might only be a slight nuance there, but it could make all the difference in accuracy of interpretation of exactly how we're 'caught up' in Christ's coming. But then again, do the peripheral details really matter as much as we get the central message?
 

GaryA

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I do get the commonly accepted interpretation. I was just offering a perspective that caught "up" doesn't necessarily have to do with the direction of the catching as it does with the connotation of it that can only be described as "up" as speaking. For example, I went up to my mother's house. I think likewise with regard to the Lord 'coming with the clouds' where some translations have Him "in the clouds", there might only be a slight nuance there, but it could make all the difference in accuracy of interpretation of exactly how we're 'caught up' in Christ's coming. But then again, do the peripheral details really matter as much as we get the central message?
The details do not necessarily matter to 'reality' - it will happen as God intends.

The details do matter where having a proper interpretation of scripture is concerned.

In a great many of the cases where an erroneous interpretation of scripture is made, it is because 'details' are overlooked or ignored.
 
Jul 2, 2025
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The entire "Left Behind" enterpri$e is based upon a perversion of Scripture: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Mat. 24:40-41). Isn't that the rapture? No, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Cult.

Jesus says his return will be just like in the days of Noah. He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." (Mat. 24:39).

Jesus says the one will be taken and the other left. So who got taken? The one who was destroyed, just as it was in the days of Noah. In fact, when the disciples asked where they were taken, Jesus said look for the vultures, for that's where the dead bodies will be: "And they answered and said unto Him, Where Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is there will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 17:37). IOW, you want to be left behind!

From the OP:
Does one's belief in the timing of rapture (pre tribulation, during tribulation, etc) affect one's salvation?
I often use the phrase "Rapture Cult," not by slur, but by definition. Because there are undoubtedly many pre-tribulation rapture adherents that are reading these words, it's very likely there are some that have never heard their own belief system referred to as a "cult." Furthermore, this term is virtually guaranteed to inflame the sensibilities of those "rapturists" that have never considered any form of what appears to be mainstream Christianity to be cultic in nature.

The fact is, the Rapture Cult is just that: a previously tiny cultic group that spread their perspective so effectively that they have emerged as the dominant party in what is presently called evangelical Christianity. In the process, they quietly shed various early doctrinal arguments of extremely dubious value, revised the record concerning their original historical roots, and criminally covered up the actual source of the cultic system. If truth seekers want documentation, simply ask.

What I commonly find in the cult is a consistent willingness to resist the truth -- even as they speak of love and grace. You can't have love and grace without the truth. This is what is meant by rightly dividing the word of truth. Regarding the period preceding the return of Christ, Paul wrote that there is a "deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth..." (II Thes. 2:10). This verse speaks volumes to me, for I believe it directly applies to the subject of this thread.

The issue of the timing of the return of Christ is not directly one of salvation, for a mistaken understanding of Christ's return was not included in the short list of unpardonable sins found in Matthew 12:31. I believe the most dangerous aspect of this controversy is also the greatest weapon the enemy has been utilizing from the very beginning: Deception.

The passages dealing with the Thief of Sardis clearly detail that an accurate understanding of this issue is a signpost -- a benchmark as to the individual's walk with Christ. If that walk is not where Christ desires it to be, the manifestation of that error is a misunderstanding of this issue -- "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief..." (Rev. 3:3). Remember, when dealing with prophecy, the enemy has three weapons: deception, deception, and deception.

Whoever is deceived on this subject is more vulnerable to the next layer of lies the enemy is planning to unleash in his final assault on the church of Jesus Christ. At some point, it will be undeniable that the tribulation period has begun. Pre-tribulation rapture oriented Christians that find themselves in this period with no scriptural preparation, emotional anticipation, or physical provisions to deal with the devastating circumstances inherent in the trubulation period will be very susceptible to a more serious lie. Many believers will undoubtedly reason that since their pastors misled them on the rapture issue, perhaps they were also in error on other aspects of salvation and the true nature of the Gospel.

Indeed, history seems to indicate that a series of false assumptions in the early church concerning the return of Christ was the motivation for the Apostle Paul's letters to the church at Thessalonica. Satan doesn't change a game plan that works. In fact, he's been using the same tactics for thousands of years, so there are some powerful indicators that this failure to perceive the truth may even be related to the great "falling away" spoken of by Paul in that same second letter to Thessalonica. Note, for example, this predicted departure from the faith occurs at the time of the emergence of the Antichrist.

For many, the much easier path offered by the harlot church will undoubtedly have more appeal than a brutal martyrdom and the very real possibility of seeing one's family starved, imprisoned, or worse. The way of the true Christian has always been personified more by the martyrs of the Roman Coliseum than the credit card laden modern church of the Mercedes-Benz.

Even though the momentum is building among various fellowships, para-church ministries, and other Christian media for a more balanced, Berean-like approach to the study of the 2nd coming, it may come too late. America is under judgement, and that judgement will begin at the house of God. God is not mocked and he WILL clean house in whatever fashion he sees fit.

In the meantime, it is a prudent course of action to continue to warn all who will listen that the great threshing floor is immediately in front of us. I believe the tribulation has begun, and the wheat and the tares will both be in it -- all the way to the harvest. While many just shrug it off and say 'God will provide,' it may be that God has been telling believers to prepare for those days. As the evidence in this thread suggests, just because your pastor or spiritual mentor preaches the 'rapture' doesn't mean it's true. The tribulation is coming and I urge all Christians to prepare NOW.

Store some food. Save some water. Think in terms of survival in a physical sense. Sleeping bags and blankets are always in demand during difficult times. During natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes, relief agencies always need medicine, food, and clothing. Almost anyone can afford basic camping supplies. There is much that you can do -- even on a limited budget. Last but not least, I believe it is imperative that all true remnant believers cease all support of the rapture cult.

The Bible says "ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Cor. 10:21) The cult has now led millions of Christians into a mind-numbing ethical and moral paralysis that has left them on the spiritual critical list. The leaders of the cult are in terrible trouble, for the principle of the watchman of Ezekiel tells the shepherds that if they fail to warn of impending danger to the flock, "...his blood will I require at thine hand." (Eze. 33:8) The cult continues to reign in arrogance claiming "I sit a queen [or bride] and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." (Rev. 18:7) For centuries, "They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you." (Jer. 23:17) Regarding this passage, the Lord tells us when this false reassurance will occur:

"...in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him?..." (Jer. 23:20-24) "Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour." (Jer. 23:30)

Having fought this battle for over 20 years, I already know how most will respond to this post. The Lord's judgement is destined to fall because, in spite of this post, and the enormous knowledge that is readily available to any Christian that will simply study their bible for themselves as they are instructed to do, most Christians still have itching ears. For this cause, God says "Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed" (Isa. 65:12, 13).

Seek the Lord for the truth, and that truth shall set you free.
 

GaryA

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The entire "Left Behind" enterpri$e is based upon a perversion of Scripture: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Mat. 24:40-41). Isn't that the rapture? No, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Cult.

Jesus says his return will be just like in the days of Noah. He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." (Mat. 24:39).

Jesus says the one will be taken and the other left. So who got taken? The one who was destroyed, just as it was in the days of Noah. In fact, when the disciples asked where they were taken, Jesus said look for the vultures, for that's where the dead bodies will be: "And they answered and said unto Him, Where Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is there will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 17:37). IOW, you want to be left behind!
If I remember correctly, I believe we agree on much - so - please do not react too quickly at what I am going to say...

First of all, if you do not define 'rapture' as the "catching up" (event) - absolutely no more and no less - but, that exactly - then, you are in error. And, if so - you do not have to be in error just because the Dispensationalist crowd is in error - because they wish to define it to include all sorts of other stuff.

In other words - do not use the 'pre-trib' rapture view definition; rather, insist upon the true definition of the word according to its proper usage in scripture - [the] "catching up" - that's it - not including all of that other stuff - period.

(Yes - I know that the word 'rapture' is not in scripture - but, I am referring to how it is applied to 'catching up'.)

~

According to the explanation in your third paragraph (above) - the last two sentences of your first paragraph should really be:

"Isn't that the rapture? Yes - but, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Cult."

Because - you are still saying that it is in fact the rapture - even though you see it "in reverse" with regard to 'taken'/'left'.

~

Now - please consider the following very carefully - do not react - think about it for a while... :geek:

In a great many of the cases where an erroneous interpretation of scripture is made, it is because 'details' are overlooked or ignored.

Read this very carefully. (copied from post #87 in this thread)

Matthew 24:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

From these verses in this passage, we can determine:

1) It is talking to Christians about Christians.

2) It is talking about the Second Coming of Christ.

3) It is talking about the rapture.

4) It is Christians that are being 'taken' ("raptured") in verses 40-41.

With regard to the comparison being made, what verses 37-39 are saying does not include what verses 40-41 are saying.

The comparison is only about the 'unexpectedness' of the event. It is not an "in every detail" kind of comparison.

The comparison is "defined" by verses 38-39. You cannot "shove" verses 40-41 into it. That is not valid.

Verses 40-41 are not part of the comparison to the Noe/ark/flood referenced event.

~

These verses very clearly show that the 'elect' are 'taken' - there are no two ways about it.

You are correct in saying:
Jesus says his return will be just like in the days of Noah.
(italic bold mine)

However, there is no direct comparison between the 'rapture' at His return and the Noah story.

This is assumed by folks who are not paying attention to what it really actually says.

It is a misinterpretation of scripture.

And, folks in this thread are arguing over it needlessly. :(

~

If the question "Where, Lord?" in Luke 17:37 is all you have to base your conclusion on - consider the possibility that you may be missing something...

What if the question is simply being asked in the sense of:

"Where is this going to happen, Lord?"

(rather than specifically about who is 'taken' - for which there is no direct indication)

The point is...

All scripture must agree.

Do not be too focused on one or two trees - back up and look at the whole forest. ;)
 

GaryA

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so there are some powerful indicators that this failure to perceive the truth may even be related to the great "falling away" spoken of by Paul
One thing that I believe is definitely worth considering is that the idea illustrated in Matthew 24:48 could be applied to the 'pre-trib' rapture view - whereby, the words "My lord delayeth his coming" would refer to those who find themselves in a quandry when they see things happen that they are [so] sure must happen after they are taken out of the picture ("raptured to safety").

The 'post-trib' folks will never say that - because, they know what has to happen before His appearance.
 

GaryA

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"We pause this thread for a test of the automatic scripture verse pop-up feature..."

Matthew 24:48 (KJV)

"We now return to the thread..."

:D
 

GaryA

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Okay - that is nice - now, if they can just get it to make the default bible version whatever is defined in the 'Bible Version Preference' field in the user account preferences...
 
Aug 22, 2024
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One thing that I believe is definitely worth considering is that the idea illustrated in Matthew 24:48 could be applied to the 'pre-trib' rapture view - whereby, the words "My lord delayeth his coming" would refer to those who find themselves in a quandry when they see things happen that they are [so] sure must happen after they are taken out of the picture ("raptured to safety").

The 'post-trib' folks will never say that - because, they know what has to happen before His appearance.
Actually the postribbers not only say it, but mock those that are looking for his coming.

All rapture verses are Buying and selling normal life, every day life, commerce,
And planning for the future.
It is hard to get around the words of Jesus.
Pretrib rapture ALONE fits end times doctrine.
 
Aug 22, 2024
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If I remember correctly, I believe we agree on much - so - please do not react too quickly at what I am going to say...

First of all, if you do not define 'rapture' as the "catching up" (event) - absolutely no more and no less - but, that exactly - then, you are in error. And, if so - you do not have to be in error just because the Dispensationalist crowd is in error - because they wish to define it to include all sorts of other stuff.

In other words - do not use the 'pre-trib' rapture view definition; rather, insist upon the true definition of the word according to its proper usage in scripture - [the] "catching up" - that's it - not including all of that other stuff - period.

(Yes - I know that the word 'rapture' is not in scripture - but, I am referring to how it is applied to 'catching up'.)

~

According to the explanation in your third paragraph (above) - the last two sentences of your first paragraph should really be:

"Isn't that the rapture? Yes - but, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Cult."

Because - you are still saying that it is in fact the rapture - even though you see it "in reverse" with regard to 'taken'/'left'.

~

Now - please consider the following very carefully - do not react - think about it for a while... :geek:




Read this very carefully. (copied from post #87 in this thread)

Matthew 24:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

From these verses in this passage, we can determine:

1) It is talking to Christians about Christians.

2) It is talking about the Second Coming of Christ.

3) It is talking about the rapture.

4) It is Christians that are being 'taken' ("raptured") in verses 40-41.

With regard to the comparison being made, what verses 37-39 are saying does not include what verses 40-41 are saying.

The comparison is only about the 'unexpectedness' of the event. It is not an "in every detail" kind of comparison.

The comparison is "defined" by verses 38-39. You cannot "shove" verses 40-41 into it. That is not valid.

Verses 40-41 are not part of the comparison to the Noe/ark/flood referenced event.

~

These verses very clearly show that the 'elect' are 'taken' - there are no two ways about it.

You are correct in saying:

(italic bold mine)

However, there is no direct comparison between the 'rapture' at His return and the Noah story.

This is assumed by folks who are not paying attention to what it really actually says.

It is a misinterpretation of scripture.

And, folks in this thread are arguing over it needlessly. :(

~

If the question "Where, Lord?" in Luke 17:37 is all you have to base your conclusion on - consider the possibility that you may be missing something...

What if the question is simply being asked in the sense of:

"Where is this going to happen, Lord?"

(rather than specifically about who is 'taken' - for which there is no direct indication)

The point is...

All scripture must agree.

Do not be too focused on one or two trees - back up and look at the whole forest. ;)
Re read it.
He said the days of Noah BEFORE THE FLOOD.
THEN one will be taken, the other left.

YOU TWISTED IT BIG TIME.
 
Aug 22, 2024
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I have read everyone of your post to this subject and you have not posted a single Scripture to prove what you say.
So prove it by Scripture.
I will wait.
Again????
Mat 24, mat 25, acts 1, Rev 19, Rev 14, 1 thes 4, the 2 escape verses, the last supper dialogue,

I have posted it's so many times I don't even have to look it up.

All those verses against your one verse?
You really think your one verse voids 9 verses?
 
Nov 1, 2024
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Where do those raptured go?
If you are postrib rapture adherent, tell me where they go.
It says that go into the clouds. Clouds are not heaven. As Noah was lifted above the earth while the wicked were taken away by death, and returned to earth when that was complete, so too will God's people be lifted above the earth into clouds while the bowls of wrath are poured out on the wicked, and will return to earth after that is completed.