Rapture

[Psalm1]

No it teaches from the mouth of Jesus about the Days of Noah, Lot, and Elijah [(Pre-Wrath)].

So you are saying in Noah that there was a few yrs of tribulation where a world leader was chopping off the heads of the righteous and there was no buying or selling, or planning for the future?

Oh wait, postrib prewrath does not even remotely fit.

Pretrib rapture fits perfectly once Jesus words are not left out.
Postrib rapture is a doctrine of omission

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So you are saying in Noah that there was a few yrs of tribulation where a world leader was chopping off the heads of the righteous and there was no buying or selling, or planning for the future?

That's so dishonest to go beyond what Jesus said like that. He simply said the wicked wouldn't know about the lord's return until destruction and death arrived and took them away.

 

[lrs68]

So you are saying in Noah that there was a few yrs of tribulation where a world leader was chopping off the heads of the righteous and there was no buying or selling, or planning for the future?

Oh wait, postrib prewrath does not even remotely fit.

Pretrib rapture fits perfectly once Jesus words are not left out.
Postrib rapture is a doctrine of omission

We know the 2 Witnesses are here for the first half or 3 1|2 years. After they're gone we know the Temple will be defiled and then war with the Saints and then the Mark of the Beast.

That means the first 3 1|2 years with the 2 Witnesses on earth are pretty safe years. But once they leave the Beast will have all power.

That means total Wrath doesn't begin for at least 3 1|2 years. Pre-Wrath, or before the Beast has full power to attack the Saints is when we absolutely need to be gone.

Just like Noah. He entered the Ark for 7 days and then it began to rain. 7 days he remained in the Ark before the Wrath was unleashed. But Noah went through the entire Tribulation.

Just like Lot who was told to leave before Wrath came. But as he was walking Wrath began and it was happening while he was climbing a mountain to the cave. So he was near the Wrath but it couldn't touch him as long as he didn't look back.

Even Elijah like Noah and Lot went through or was near the Wrath but not touched by it. They were all Pre-Wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

We know the 2 Witnesses are here for the first half or 3 1|2 years.

There is no such "first half". The time the beast has is 42 months and that's when the two witnesses are here.

 

[Psalm1]

That's so dishonest to go beyond what Jesus said like that. He simply said the wicked wouldn't know about the lord's return until destruction and death arrived and took them away.

No
What Is dishonest is to OMIT COMPONENTS, and REFEAME what is there.
Why are YOU dishonest.
By LEAVING OUT COMPONEBTS , you are able TO MAKE IT SAY whatever suits you.
How ironic your deal is.

JESUS SAID "BEFORE the flood"
You say "nope leave that out, I must be 'honest' with it, so we can legally omit the facts"

Jesus said "watch and be ready"
You say "oh no no no, he is telling the wicked to be ready"

Jesus said the setting is, "normal life, commerce and planning for the future"
You say : "now now, Jesus was dishonest and adding things to it"

you apparently are so obsessed with making your deal fly that Jesus is now dishonest.



SMH.

 

[Psalm1]

We know the 2 Witnesses are here for the first half or 3 1|2 years. After they're gone we know the Temple will be defiled and then war with the Saints and then the Mark of the Beast.

That means the first 3 1|2 years with the 2 Witnesses on earth are pretty safe years. But once they leave the Beast will have all power.

That means total Wrath doesn't begin for at least 3 1|2 years. Pre-Wrath, or before the Beast has full power to attack the Saints is when we absolutely need to be gone.

Just like Noah. He entered the Ark for 7 days and then it began to rain. 7 days he remained in the Ark before the Wrath was unleashed. But Noah went through the entire Tribulation.

Just like Lot who was told to leave before Wrath came. But as he was walking Wrath began and it was happening while he was climbing a mountain to the cave. So he was near the Wrath but it couldn't touch him as long as he didn't look back.

Even Elijah like Noah and Lot went through or was near the Wrath but not touched by it. They were all Pre-Wrath.

You totally side stepped the analogy.
Your analogy NEEDS a PERIOD OF TRIBULATION before Noah LEAVES EARTH.
What we have in reality is JESUS WORDS of NORMAL LIFE WITH NOAH.
JESUS SAID "commerce, normal life , planning for the future, businesses flourishing, and everyday life."
You really think LEAVING OUT COMPONENTS and adding others is wisdom?????

But look at the IMPOSSIBILITY of that postrib theory. You are telling me that half the world is wicked, and half righteous???? JESUS SAID " ONE WILL BE TAKEN THE OTHER LEFT"
Your doctrine says " see, half the world is wicked, half is righteous "
NOWHERE past or present, or future is theat true, or ever will be.
You can get as crafty as humanly possible, but your deal is 100% nonsense.
It Only flies in the realm of OMISSION AND REFRAMING.
100% FALSE DOCTRINE in the postrib workbook.

I just shake my head at the crafty reframing and omission.
But it is comimical watching the butcher job with Noah.
Ask yourself why EVERY postribber reframes Jesus analogy with Noah, and the virgin parable.

With no red flags!!!!!!

 

[GWH]

Does one's belief in the timing of rapture (pre tribulation, during tribulation, etc) affect one's salvation?

No. Even Jesus did not know the timing.

rapture = translation = heaven bound (1Cor. 15)

 

[lrs68]

You totally side stepped the analogy.
Your analogy NEEDS a PERIOD OF TRIBULATION before Noah LEAVES EARTH.
What we have in reality is JESUS WORDS of NORMAL LIFE WITH NOAH.
JESUS SAID "commerce, normal life , planning for the future, businesses flourishing, and everyday life."
You really think LEAVING OUT COMPONENTS and adding others is wisdom?????

But look at the IMPOSSIBILITY of that postrib theory. You are telling me that half the world is wicked, and half righteous???? JESUS SAID " ONE WILL BE TAKEN THE OTHER LEFT"
Your doctrine says " see, half the world is wicked, half is righteous "
NOWHERE past or present, or future is theat true, or ever will be.
You can get as crafty as humanly possible, but your deal is 100% nonsense.
It Only flies in the realm of OMISSION AND REFRAMING.
100% FALSE DOCTRINE in the postrib workbook.

I just shake my head at the crafty reframing and omission.
But it is comimical watching the butcher job with Noah.
Ask yourself why EVERY postribber reframes Jesus analogy with Noah, and the virgin parable.

With no red flags!!!!!!

Doesn't actually matter they left right BEFORE WRATH began. But they remained all the way up to the point of destruction. That is 100% Pre-Wrath.

 

[Psalm1]

Doesn't actually matter they left right BEFORE WRATH began. But they remained all the way up to the point of destruction. That is 100% Pre-Wrath.

Yep
Pre Daniel's 70th week.
Prewrath included.
7 yr trib, then we come back.
Noah illustrates the taking of God's people high into the sky.
The trib/wrath/( Daniel's 70th week)/ all happening below them with God's people miles above the earth.
Then after the Tribulation, wrath and (Daniel 70 week )is finished Gods people return to Earth and set up a new Kingdom.

That is a vivid depiction of the pre trib wrath70thweek

Postribbers have no such analogy.
In fact they hide the fact that there is normal life, then the rapture. They have Noah under great tribulation with no normal life before the flood.

Way, way off.
Then the very strange doctrine that half the earth is wicked and half righteous with the wicked supposedly taken preflood.

Postrib doctrine is so poorly thought out.

Half the population of the world is righteous??????
Huh????????

 

[Psalm1]

Doesn't actually matter they left right BEFORE WRATH began. But they remained all the way up to the point of destruction. That is 100% Pre-Wrath.

The only ones gathered preflood were God's people.
The prewrath position has the wicked taken BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Not even remotely possible.
Totally off because Jesus framed the ones taken before the flood.
Then when the component of "half taken" is on the table, it really gets impossible.

But you can leave out components if that Is what you want to do

 

[lrs68]

The only ones gathered preflood were God's people.
The prewrath position has the wicked taken BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Not even remotely possible.
Totally off because Jesus framed the ones taken before the flood.
Then when the component of "half taken" is on the table, it really gets impossible.

But you can leave out components if that Is what you want to do

They died because of the rain that eventually created the flood.
You are dancing because you know I am correct.

 

[Clayman]

Yeah meet him in the clouds and return to earth to be with him forever more. Do you seriously think our future is in the clouds?

I dont think anyone believes we will ascend in clouds to meet in the clouds, as it does not make sense for anyone, and as you say, once we meet the Lord in the air, there are two possibilities for us, continue on to be at home with the Lord in heaven or do a 180 and come back to earth which to me seems a strange thing to do, Why bother going up into the sky to come back down? Just for kicks and giggles? Imagine if Isaac came down to meet his bride and returned with her!

The servant(Holy Spirit) asked him, “What if the woman is unwilling to come back with me to this land? Shall I then take your son back to the country you came from?”

The father said “Make sure that you do not take my son back there"

Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel and asked the servant, “Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?”

I guess scripture has just pre-programmed my thinking with examples that when the groom comes down to meet the Church, He will take us back to heaven not come back with us.

 

[Howdy]

You have to remember that I go by the bible.
You are telling me your beliefs.
So my job is to present what is written. Invoking you to call it bs.

It you really went by the Bible you would not be twisting Scripture to conform to what you believe.

 

[ewq1938]

Why bother going up into the sky to come back down?

Because before the rapture the elect are scattered all over the world. The rapture is also a gathering of the saints, so they are caught up from all over the Earth and gather together in one place in the clouds, then follow Christ as an army down to the Earth at Armageddon.

 

[Clayman]

Because before the rapture the elect are scattered all over the world. The rapture is also a gathering of the saints, so they are caught up from all over the Earth and gather together in one place in the clouds, then follow Christ as an army down to the Earth at Armageddon.

Do you have a verse or two that backs this up? am curious how you can possibly come to this conclusion, Why do post tribbers have this picture of meeting the Lord in the clouds? I read it as, we gather together and ascend in clouds to meet the Lord in the air not meet in the clouds, Not trying to be pedantic but I assume we can both see a reason why post-tribbers want it to be in the clouds.

From my perspective I am raptured meet the Lord in the air and we return to heaven to be forever with the Lord while judgment and wrath is poured out on earth, when the Lord leaves heaven, His army including you and me leave Heaven on horses not clouds with Him as we are already there (clothed and in heaven).

Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.

Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[cv5]

I dont think anyone believes we will ascend in clouds to meet in the clouds, as it does not make sense for anyone, and as you say, once we meet the Lord in the air, there are two possibilities for us, continue on to be at home with the Lord in heaven or do a 180 and come back to earth which to me seems a strange thing to do, Why bother going up into the sky to come back down? Just for kicks and giggles? Imagine if Isaac came down to meet his bride and returned with her!

The servant(Holy Spirit) asked him, “What if the woman is unwilling to come back with me to this land? Shall I then take your son back to the country you came from?”

The father said “Make sure that you do not take my son back there"

Rebekah also looked up and saw Isaac. She got down from her camel and asked the servant, “Who is that man in the field coming to meet us?”

I guess scripture has just pre-programmed my thinking with examples that when the groom comes down to meet the Church, He will take us back to heaven not come back with us.

We certainly enjoy the harpazo and a 7 year (7 day per Jewish custom) honeymoon with the Groom at the Fathers house.
See Ruth at the feet of Boaz in context of the threshing (tribulum) floor scene.

“My beloved spoke and said to me: ‘Arise, my darling, come along, my beautiful one, come with me.’” – Song of Solomon 2:10

Afterward, we do indeed accompany Him in his triumphant return to rule and reign as King. This because the Bride ALWAYS accompanies the Husband wherever He goes.

BTW, Jesus was fulfilling His role as Prophet at His first coming.
Now He is fulfilling his role as High Priest while we wait for Him to harpazo us.
Afterwards, He fulfills his role as triumphant/wise King at the SC and millennial reign.

Which of course is why Moses (prophet) did not enter the promised land.
It was Joshua (conquering king) who HAD TO fulfill that role.

Which of course proves that the conquest of Caanan is a type of the "end time" tribulation.

 

[GaryA]

Why bother going up into the sky to come back down?

Order of events:

~ JESUS appears
~ Resurrection & Rapture occur
~ 'Wrath of God' poured out upon the earth (while the saints are all "gathered 'in the air' with Jesus")
~ JESUS and saints go down to the earth as the 1000-year reign of Christ "gets underway"

 

[GaryA]

Do you have a verse or two that backs this up?

( from https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/pre-trib-objections.218256/page-4#post-5470935 )

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. { Second Coming of Christ (His "appearing") } 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. { RAPTURE } 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. { 'Wrath of God' } 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

FIRST - Jesus "appears" (1st)
THEN - RAPTURE (2nd)
THEN - 'Wrath of God' (3rd)

Revelation 14:17-20 occurs after Revelation 14:15-16 - which occurs after Revelation 14:14.

No part of the 'Wrath of God' can occur before the rapture. The rapture cannot occur before Jesus appears.

Please see: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

Notice what verses are aligned with the chapter 14 verses.

Notice how this verse is aligned:

Revelation 19:

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This verse tells us that it is Jesus Himself who "dishes out" the 'Wrath of God' upon the world. See how it aligns with verses in other chapters.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you have a verse or two that backs this up? am curious how you can possibly come to this conclusion, Why do post tribbers have this picture of meeting the Lord in the clouds? I read it as, we gather together and ascend in clouds to meet the Lord in the air not meet in the clouds, Not trying to be pedantic but I assume we can both see a reason why post-tribbers want it to be in the clouds.

Since they are all scattered around the world, the clouds are the logical gathering point.

From my perspective I am raptured meet the Lord in the air and we return to heaven to be forever with the Lord while judgment and wrath is poured out on earth, when the Lord leaves heaven, His army including you and me leave Heaven on horses not clouds with Him as we are already there (clothed and in heaven).

The issue is that no rapture related passage states anyone is taken to heaven (the 3rd heaven where God is). The clouds is as far as any raptured saints are taken to.


Image saints all over the world rising up and going to one place in the clouds, maybe right above the place where Armageddon happens. It's like football fans from all over the world flying to NY to attend the Super Bowl there in NYC. The rapture's only purpose is to get all the saints who are still alive to be in one place together, and that place is a place where Jesus will be.

 

[Mem]

Maybe my interpretation is too general but isn't it phrased as the Lord is "coming with the clouds of heaven" rather than "in the clouds of heaven..." (Daniel 7:13; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7) and we that are alive and remain will be caught up together with the resurrected to meet the Lord "in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:17)? Wouldn't the phrasing have been much more succinct if it were worded "we will be caught up together with them in the air to meet the Lord" or "those who are alive and remain will be caught up in the air together with them to meet the Lord"? Although I know that neither here nor there makes all the difference as long as we are with the Lord, the actual phrasing gives me pause in adopting the general consensus in what scripture is telling us, especially considering the reach of the general 'ambiance' on that day. I mean, like, everyone knows when spring has arrived because "spring is in the air."